Talk:University of Otago

History of Student Protest

there needs to be some refernce to the strong history of student protest on the University campus. I see that some people have tried to indicate this recently, albeit in a farily narrow fashion, but then these comments were edited out! I have added a sentence about this at the beginning, with one refence, but this sentence could have a reference for the biggest protest from each decade (mixed flatting, student fees, cannabis law reform to name just a few). I think it deserves a level 2 sub heading, or at least an incorporation into the 'themes' or traditions section (in line with the discussion on couch burning below). Please expand on this theme and do not just edit it out. This is a very significant part of the hisotry of the University and student culture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Otepoti history (talk • contribs) 02:07, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Please leave the information about cannabis law reform Protests at the University, it is very significant and topical and many students and staff are interested in the issue. I notice Xlerate is very keen to have this information removed but the validity of including this information can be defended by the same arguments that Xlerate is using to keep the 'couch burning' section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.80.33.95 (talk) 21:53, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

This page is for the University of Otago, not for attempting to subtly promote Otago Norml. Once again I believe you (Abe Gray, then Otepoti_history, now anon?) have a WP:COI, edits have obvious pro-Norml POV. The couch-burning, however, isn't addressed promotionally. There could be a mention of this topic along the lines of students occasionally arrested on campus, as covered in 3rd party news, but I still feel it is WP:UNDUE (ALCP 0.41% in recent election for example). Additionally I don't see any mention of Norml on the campus cop website, unlike the couching burning problem: http://www.campuscop.co.nz/fires.html XLerate (talk) 00:58, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Quoting Xlerate 'I want it to stay, it is a significant part of this university's culture. I fail to see how officially sanctioned bears on the relevance - if we only hear about approved events then an article can become an advert, censor anything negative. Neither does [it] need to practiced by the majority - the majority of NZers don't play rugby, yet it is the national sport.' Also 'It is significant when it can be cited in the national news multiple times. The sources indicate it is part of this university's culture, therefore justified mentioning in this article.' These statements apply to the cannabis law reform protests on the Otago campus. The fact that XLerate's personal opinion is one of indifference to this part of Otago University culture does not negate it's notability as part of the campus atmosphere. This information must stay in the summary of student protest at Otago as it is the most recent example of a long tradition. XLerate making assumptions about the various authors who have tried to add this information and a personal distaste for the information is not justification for removal. The single sentence at issue is 'The most recent protest movement on the Otago Campus centres around the reform of New Zealand's cannabis prohibition laws'. This is not in any way promotional and it is a statement of fact that is referenced and backed up by numerous mainstream media references. If you have an issue with the wording change it to be more suitable, do not remove it. This is a factual event that is now part of Otago University's history, just like couch burning, whether people like it or not. It is not up to the personal opinions of editors to censor information. If this information is removed again without reasonable justification it will be considered an edit war and a third opinion will be sought and I think it is quite clear that this information is relevant and topical and will be reinstated permanently. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.80.33.95 (talk) 01:23, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Protest is a part of the culture, that isn't the issue. It is correct to say the problem is the sentence 'The most recent protest movement on the Otago Campus centres around the reform of New Zealand's cannabis prohibition laws' - it sounds very like a goal of Norml. We can see on the ODT there are recent student protests about debt and about Tibet for example. So to say recent protest centres on cannabis is pro-Norml POV, undue weight promoting that organisation/its goals. Please do invite WP:3O, one look at the anon edit history shows a case of WP:SPA - once again, does the anon editor deny a WP:COI? XLerate (talk) 02:42, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

If you think other current protest topics should be added, by all means add them in that section, though none of your examples have gained anywhere near the notoriety of the OUNORML protests or any of the other protests from other eras mentioned in that section. Will you be satisified if the sentence is changed to 'One of the most recent protest movements...'. This would seem to rectify your concern and leave room for other additions of current protest topics. With regard to WP:SPA, let me draw attention to several sentences from the description of that phenomenon, 'If you are in a discussion with someone who edits as a single purpose account, Communal standards such as don't bite the newcomers apply to all users. Be courteous. Focus on the subject matter, not the person. If they are given fair treatment, they may also become more involved over time.' and 'statements regarding motives are not generally recommended. The term should be used descriptively and should not be read pejoratively unless a disruptive agenda is clearly established.' and 'Identifying and interacting with single-purpose accounts requires both civility and tact.' I will change the sentence to as I have indicated above and hopefully this will resolve your concerns. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.80.33.95 (talk) 03:57, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

A single sentence about the cannabis law reform protests is entirely legitimate within the context of other notable historical protests at Otago. Your removal of this information based on assumptions you are making about an editors POV is a clear indication of bias. The sentence as it exists now 'Since 2004 a group of students has met on the Otago campus to protest what they term 'New Zealand's unjust cannabis prohibition laws' is entirely factual and supported by the references provided. To make a statement of fact like that does not imply any endorsement. It is quite clear through your repeated attempts to prevent any mention of the cannabis law reform protests in association with the University, that you are in fact the one with POV issues. Your edit summaries indicate a clear anti NORML bias, for example 'rewrite offending sentence ("recently", "prohibition", Norml obfuscation/propaganda)' and 'not advertising space for Norml protests, other 2008 protests had many more people (~281 v ~100 v ~40))'. You are attributing malicious intent based only on assumptions you are making and removing information on that basis is not in the spirit of Wikipedia. That would be like me accusing you of being a paid employee of the University's Marketing and Communications division and removing any information you have ever added by claiming a COI (are you?). The cannabis law reform protests have in fact been quite notable and are now a part of the University's history. You don't have to be a NORML enthusiast to recognise that. The law reform protests have been running continuously for five years, they have regularly attracted well over 100 people on numerous occasions and over 250 on several occasions, they were mentioned in the news at least 5 times in 2007 and well over 25 times in 2008 (including national TV news in both years). This makes them notable enough to be included in their own sentence along with the chronology of other significant historical protests. Adding a bunch of minor protests from 2008 in an attempt to obscure the significance of the law reform protests is giving the other events undue weight, another Wiki no no. If you remove this information again a third opinion will be sought. Also in the future please refrain from making assumptions and accusations about someone who is new to Wikipedia, you might put them off.139.80.33.95 (talk) 22:00, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

New editors are still asked to be civil, and realise their contributions may be edited mercilessly, topics the IP editor needs to understand - "placate" is being disrespectful for example. Citations, edit summaries, talk page arguments, and essay quotes don't support the claim of being new. Yet again I challenge the IP editor to declare any association with NORML, and no I am not employed by the university or any PR firm. That suggestion is another credibility issue for the editor who quoted me on couch burning - honestly. The IP editors contribs show a specific agenda editing Wikipedia, again they need to be aware: "not welcome to promote NORML protests here". The ODT proves they are less popular. XLerate (talk) 01:33, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Couch burning?

i do not think this should be inncluded in the university page as it is not a university event nor is it practiced by the vast mojority of students. I will delete it in a week unless i get a decent argument against its deletion...

I want it to stay, it is a significant part of this university's culture - here is an example, here is another. I fail to see how officially sanctioned bears on the relevance - if we only hear about approved events then an article can become an advert, censor anything negative. Neither does couch burning need to practiced by the majority - the majority of NZers don't play rugby, yet it is the national sport. XLerate (talk) 06:24, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

It might be recent and topical, but it's hardly significant in the grand scheme of things. Couch burning is to the 00s what potato cannons were to the 90s, and sky-rocket wars at Unicol were to, well, until they were banned. Couch burning doesn't warrant its own section, and not at a Level 2 sub-heading. Limegreen (talk) 10:45, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

It is significant when it can be cited in the national news multiple times. The sources indicate it is part of this university's culture, therefore justified mentioning in this article. The campus cop has a webpage specifically on this topic, he mentions 4-6 fires a week, as well as arson penalties up to 14 years jail. XLerate (talk) 07:12, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

We can do better than this

At the moment the article reads like a series of unconnected sentences! There is little to no history of the place, description of campus, explanation of student life (what about the scarfies?!?). Check out Dartmouth College, Duke University and Cornell University. In the age of digital cameras I'm sure there are some photos out there too!

The main question is: where should the overhal begin? Auccl799 00:23, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Alumnae and alumni

Right-O, fellow-grads, students, and sympathisers: let's see if we can convert some of those sub-subheading famous people into internal links by writing articles about them! Robin Patterson 05:07, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Colleges and Halls

It's bugged me for sometime the over-emphasis on this page with respect to Knox and Selwyn. I have fairly strong connections to one of them, but frankly it makes me a bit nauseous. Knox and Selwyn are not the only halls that are independent of the University, or the only halls with Chapels or Tutorials. And while they do have "fellows", the fellows do not interact in the same way that fellows interact in the same way they do at, say, Cambridge. They are both older, and probably have a higher degree of tradition associated with them, but they way it's presented seems exaggerated, and mildly in violation of NPOV...Limegreen 04:18, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Colleges etc

The comment about Knox/Selwyn is perhaps true. But skimming through the article I notice the comment about how the most selective halls are Carrington, Selwyn and Knox. Certainly Carrington is selective, but nowhere near as much so as the other two.

All three are full of snobby Ivory Tower types, what does it matter?

I think the suggestion is out to make a separate article called something like ""University of Otago Residence Halls". Instead of having separate articles for each hall, or instead of having excessive material about a particular one here. What do yall think? Lisamh 16:59, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Colleges cont'd

Why is the description of Arana right in the middle of the university page? Surely this is a mistake? Agree with the above re University of Otago Colleges of Residence, however think seperate pages for Knox and Selwyn are warranted simply because of the history and interest independent of their status as university colleges. Knox for example has a School of Ministry and Selwyn is after all the first.

Valid point re selectiveness of Carrington. The most consistently selective are Knox, Selwyn and Arana. I think while there may be an 'emphasis' on Knox and Selwyn Colleges it reflects the fact that by their nature (high rate of returners, history, traditions, resident and non-resident fellows' they play a more integral role in their students' university experiences. Do agree however that the bulk of any information about them or any other hall detracts from the university site and should be seperated.

Arana should have been at best a subsection of residential colleges, and was supposed to be merged to a different page, not this one. I've sent it back to its own page in the interim. --Limegreen 04:59, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

cleanup help

I'm asking for cleanup help on the University College, Otago article. The current article isn't very informative. Thanks. Kerowyn 06:56, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Motto

The motto seems to be incorrect. It should be 'Dare to be wise' (c.f. http://www.otago.ac.nz/profiles/students/annaguthrie.html) kabl00ey 08:32, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

'Dare to be wise' is the translation that the University seems to prefer, although I am not aware as to whether they have officially adopted an english version. Sapere Aude suggests that the current gloss there is at least not entirely incorrect. the more common gloss occurs in the text, and intriguingly, that other version has been there for almost 2 years with no comment [1] --Limegreen 00:13, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Allen Hall

I think if there is going to be an article about the capping show then there should also be an article about the other theatrical events that happen at the University, of which there are many created every year by the Theatre Studies dept. The theatre dept is a large part of uni life for many people as there is a new play every week for the Lunch Time Theatre Programme and also many evening theatre productions directed by the departments honours students.

College and alumni templates

Hi, I've updated Knox College's article (with all the COI go-aheads in place) and tidied it up using a new college alumni template (tailored for residential colleges) and an Otago college infobox (based on those for residential colleges elsewhere). Since St Margaret's and Selwyn were fairly straightforward to put into this format, I've done that too and have altered the University infobox used in a couple of college articles to the new one. However, this has a couple of issues I'd like a little help with, please:

• Free coats of arms - I've done Knox, Selwyn and St Margarets because they seem to fit into the same rules as coats of arms for residential colleges elsewhere (and Cumberland's has already been done by somebody else), but I don't know which of the others have coats of arms and which have only non-free, potentially trademarked, logos. Salmond's may well be do-able? [NB: I realise that the actual emblazon is non-free, but a new work based off the blazon shouldn't be...]
• College colours - at the very least, including rugby colours would be good
• Applying these templates to other college articles.

Any assistance would be much appreciated! PS If anybody has a use for it, I've made a college userbox (User:Philtweir/User Knoxie) to go with my other ones and is pretty easy to derive off. Selwyn and St Margaret's CoAs are on their pages... --Philtweir (talk) 03:38, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Further to this, some input on what the most suitable term for dependent/university-owned colleges is would be great so the status can be included. Please see the talk page of Template:Infobox Otago college and post your 2 cents.--Philtweir (talk) 10:48, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Further to further to this, I've prepared a User:Philtweir/Colleges of the University of Otago page, which is based on the text on this page. Would there be any objection to me creating this page (which has a couple more sections, a tidy up and subsections on the articleless colleges) and linking it from this page? This seems to have been successfully proposed a couple of years ago. Cheers, --Philtweir (talk) 06:02, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

I think it's fine, linking to the main article and trimming the section to a summary paragraph. XLerate (talk) 03:46, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Edit War by User XLerate and User Otepoti history

Please discuss here on the talk page rather than continually reverting each other. Thank You. Outback the koala (talk) 23:15, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

That content has two issues, posting meeting schedules for Otago NORML is inappropriate on this page, and is breach of WP:SOAPBOX. The claim first arrest isn't substantiated by the references, and appears to be another attempt to promote that group here. User:Otepoti history has a history of making personal attacks, they need to conform to WP:CIVIL for this discussion, and restrict their posts to improving the article. XLerate (talk) 23:24, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

I also see that the claims are not supported by the sources. But I hope Otepoti history participates in this discussion and might be able to substantiate the additions to the encyclopedia. @XLerate; I left Otepti's version of the page as is, only because he made the addition first and you in turn reverted. Outback the koala (talk) 23:56, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Little surprised to see the page reverted to the unsourced content per WP:BURDEN, but I see where you're coming from Outback. The initial edit by Otepoti history was undoing an earlier edit I'd made [2]. The university/OUSA has dozens of clubs, I think none of the meeting schedules ought to be included in this article. I also believe there is a pattern of abuse by that group, the university, OUSA, Wikipedia, being used as a platform for propaganda. XLerate (talk) 00:23, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

I understand you're reasoning and I must agree, the unsourced content shouldn't have stayed. I'll tentatively change the page back, but I don't want to stifle discussion and I have posted my original reasoning above. I think that propaganda is purhaps a harsh wording, while we certainly aren't here for promotional purposes, it seems noteworthy enough for me as long as we have a source. Some kind of reference to confirm this material is all we need, WP:V is clear. Hopeful Otepoti will join the discussion and shed some light on this. Outback the koala (talk) 04:07, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Hi there I don't see how the version of sentences that I have edited is promotional. It is merely a statement of facts. The meeting schedules are not posted, it merely says 'twice weekly'. The edit as XLerate would like to see it totally obscures the relation of this group to the tradition of student protest at Otago and to some would seem like a deliberate obfuscation. Xlerate has a history of making unsupported accusations about COI and bias and edits that could be construed as malicious related to this group. Third opinions have been sought in the past and upheld against XLerate and it is clear that he is the one with bias. Accusing other users of COI without evidence is not considered CIVIL. I am reverting the edit to my version, I will check the reference and change it to a more appropriate one if necessary. Cheers. Otepoti history (talk) 06:33, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Just read through the references and every single thing in that sentence is supported by them, could you guys tell me what you thought was unsupported by the references? Also if you could explain why the sentence as written seems soapbox/promotional? Otepoti history (talk) 06:41, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Don't continue edit-warring after you've been told to resolve it here. Which reference supports the claim "first on-campus arrests of students since the Registry occupation"? I've repeatedly asked for references for that specific part [3] [4], and again in this thread, Otepoti history is playing deaf for this request.

The part about trespass notices, supported by references[5] was also removed, that needs to stay in being the other half of the arrests story. Both versions contain Otago NORML, the claim of obfuscation is nonsense.

Here is the list of OUSA clubs, including all in the article with twice weekly or however often meetings are held is unreasonable. The Otago NORML "twice weekly meetings" is promotional for that organisation and not relevant to this article, it needs to be removed.

I see Otepoti history has also refused my request to be civil, if they continue making personal attacks they risk being blocked. XLerate (talk) 07:23, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

The claim of bias against me is also false, for example this edit, which probably saved Otepoti history's article from deletion. XLerate (talk) 07:44, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Prior to this edit I had not looked at the sources, as my first concern was the edit war, but I have attempted to make a compromise using only material provided in the citations. Hopefully we can all be happy with this version. I removed the "first on-campus arrests of students since the Registry occupation" part because no source supports it. But I have included the "weekly meetings" part. Tell me what you think of these changes - Do they satisfy everyone? Outback the koala (talk) 19:04, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your diplomacy Outback, looks fine to to me apart from one issue. The "twice weekly meetings since" still needs to be removed, details of that group don't belong here per WP:SOAPBOX #1, #4, #5 and WP:UNDUE. "Those promoting causes or events, or issuing public service announcements, even if noncommercial, should use a forum other than Wikipedia to do so." Like nearly every edit made by Otepoti history's WP:SPA, it is only to sneak advertising for that group and it's cause into Wikipedia. XLerate (talk) 00:31, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

I just think it's giving context to the situation and although Otepoti seems to be an SPA, I don't think it invalidates this one sentence which is clearly sourced and only serves to provide context. If it was anything more it would probably be promotional, but I don't think this is in Soapbox territory. Thoughts? Outback the koala (talk) 01:44, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for the intervention here outback, it's nice to be able to discuss the finer points of this without just having everything deleted. I am fairly in agreement with the edit as it stands now, but I think the last sentence needs to be changed slightly as currently it makes it sound like the protests stopped after the arrests, which they haven't. How about changing it to, 'In 2008, several members were arrested and issued trespass notices from the Union Lawn, but the protests continue to this day.'? Otepoti history (talk) 06:25, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the talk pages do help facilitate discussion. As to your suggested addition, please, go ahead and add it in, as long it is referenced. I don't recall seeing anything that says the protests are still ongoing, but if you could direct me to which present reference talks about this; or better yet, provide a new source (always a WP:RS of course), that would be dandy. Thanks. Outback the koala (talk) 07:18, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Hi there, I added the sentence as I suggested to reflect that the protests still continue, as for a reference source, the reference that talks about the fifth anniversary of the protests being held in September 2009 shows that the protests continued after the arrests and trespass notices in mid-2008. Cheers. Otepoti history (talk) 22:04, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Navbox

I've put together a basic navbox with the faculties and colleges, as I was getting fed up trying to move between them and noticed other universities had solved this problem using such an approach. To avoid causing any undue confusion, I've added it to the college pages rather than everything so people can have a look first and see if there are any objections or changes. If so, work away on Template:University of Otago. Incidentally, a list of Matariki partners is commented out in the code; wasn't too sure whether it would be unnecessary padding. Finally, should student associations be added or does that bring in a slightly disconnected and changeable list? --Philtweir (talk) 08:47, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, solved the Matariki question. All members have the new Matariki navbox --Philtweir (talk) 10:22, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Sources source

Those looking for sources on the University or related topics may find this Hocken Bulletin to be of use:

• Gregor Macaulay and Hocken Library staff (May 1996). "Bulletin Number 16: University of Otago records and historical sources" (PDF).

- Philtweir (talk) 03:43, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Ethnicity of students

Does anyone know if the University changed their method of calculating which ethnicity people come from in 2007 - If you go to the source cited for the ethnicity table, the values differ from the ones here on Wikipedia. Do the tables need to go back that far in the past, or can it be updated for just the 2007-2011 that are currently on the Otago website? I don't feel that the ethnicity of students in 2003 is relevant or should be included. Iberichard (talk) 21:38, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

External links modified

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