Talk:Chernivtsi

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POV-ish[edit]

This is a good article, although it is obviously written from 'Romanian perspective'. In Ukraine it is generally believed that the northern Bukovyna (Chernivtsi region) is a part of Ukrainian historical territory, which in the interwar period was occupied by Romania. Another remark: there was no province named "Ruthenia" in the Austria-Hungary, the province was actually called Bukowina.

Andriyc 19:29, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Not sure who and why corrected this article claiming that Chernivtsi is historical Territory of Moldova. It's have been, ever! Before WWII, -if I recall correctly March 28th 1939 -, it used to be part of Romania. Before WWI, it used to belong to Austro-Hungarian Empire. At some point before that, it used to be part of Poland. And at some point before that it belonged to Otoman empire. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.83.234.26 (talk) 03:55, 12 April 2014 (UTC) Get lost Romanian nationalist. Chernivtsi is UKRAINE! --24.0.240.16 (talk) 02:39, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Theatre similarities[edit]

Have a look at this two pictures:

  • Cernăuţi National Theatre (Ukraine)
    Cernăuţi National Theatre (Ukraine)
  • Cluj-Napoca National Theatre (Romania)
    Cluj-Napoca National Theatre (Romania)

Does somebody know if this buildings were constructed by the same architect? Or maybe if the timing of the construction is about the time Cernăuţi was part of Romania (or maybe at the the time it was part of Austria-Hungary?). If you know something about that post it here. --Danutz

Teatrul National Cluj este cea mai importanta institutie teatrala din Transilvania si printre cele mai prestigioase din România. A fost inaugurat la 1 Decembrie 1919. Cladirea construita în 1907 este opera renumitilor arhitecti austrieci Helmer si Fellner (from http://www.primariaclujnapoca.ro)
The building of the theatre is one of the most beautiful architectural monuments in the city. It was built in 1905 by Austrian architects F. Fellner and G. Gellmer who also built Vienna (Austria) and Odessa (Ukraine) opera houses. (from http://www.city.cv.ua/English/Culture/Theatre.shtml)
bogdan ʤjuʃkə | Talk 19:39, 30 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Here is the list of all the theatres in Europe built by architects Fellner & Helmer: http://www.andreas-praefcke.de/carthalia/list_fellner_helmer.html The closest architecturally to Chernovtsy theater was the one in a German town of Fürth: http://www.stadttheater.de/das_haus/geschichte/index.shtml -Sasha

They look almost like but not the same.-- Bonaparte talk 19:20, 11 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]


King Yaroslav and real property[edit]

The first fortress at the city terrains (preserved at the left shore of Prut river until 13 c. when it was destroyed by Tatars) was established by Galician king Yaroslav Osmomysl (1153-1187). After Tatar invasion the city was transfered to highr right side of the river.

These sentences said something about an ancient unnamed fortress at the left shore of Prut river. If you like to speak of "city terrains" on time of a King, there should be some titles of property, naming the city, or the "transfered" city, and the property. There is no mention that the King awarded or cares somehow the "city terrains". --Vasile 15:37, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A link was provided but this not good enough.

1) The first military stronghold, a city-fortress at the place of today's Chernivtsi (at the left shore of Prut river) was established by Galician king Yaroslav Osmomysl (1153-1187) to strengthen the south border of Principality of Halych.

  1. A King should declare every piece of his possesion. There is no mention of that "military stronghold". It is unclear the established link between the fortress and that King.
  • Kings (at least our) at that time were declaring some property their own in a very simple way - they were building stroghodls. How it was linked to that king - ask archaeologists. They found coins of that king, typical slavic pottery, armour, records in Cronicles that king went to fortify his frontiers, etc. Finally, the types of fortified constructions (and they are preserved till these days) are wery specific for hystorical period and state. Or you will provide us with proves that it was Romanian king that built that fortress and gave it Slavic name?--Bryndza 02:22, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

2) After the stronghold was destroyed by Tatar-Mongol hordes of Burundai in the first half of 13th century, the city was transfered (in 1259) to higher right side of the Prut river.

  1. Wihthout any document it is impossible to prove any action made in 1259.
  • Why not? From Chronicles we know, that in 1259, Burundai demanded that all the fortifications in Rus to be destrojed. So the people moved to right river bank--Bryndza 02:22, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

3) From 1359 Chernivtsi became a part of the Principality of Moldavia.

You can't say that precisely. There is no mention of Chernivitsi since 1408. --Vasile 00:23, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Why not? It was like this. In 1340 the Polish king Casimir the Great had seized Galicia, which included the fortification of Chotin on the Dniester River and Cecina in the vicinity of what would later be Czernowitz. War again erupted in 1359 between the Poles under Casimir and the Moldavians in which the Poles were defeated.--Bryndza 02:22, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Vasile, I've got you. Any non-Romanian foundation of Chernivci is not acceptable for you. What can we do about it? Nothing. Only to study facts. It is not up to you or me to change history--Bryndza 02:08, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Even the city web-site use for this version the expression "it's said". You have to have more solid proves to credit a legend. You aproximate the facts. While is sure that Chernovitsi existed prior the mention of 1408, no sovereign (Polish or not) pretended or exercited the property of the city. You can say that the location was inhabited, but only a sovereign could actually declared that location as fortress or city. The Prince Alexandru cel Bun did it in 1408. --Vasile 02:42, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The Prince Alexandru cel Bun did not declare any property of the city in 1408. He did trade with merchants from Lviv and it is recorded in recorded in business papers that were found (in Lviv, if I'm not mistaken). I repeat again. Putting a fortress, or building city walls at those times equals to declaring the city part of state of which the builder-king is. I want to remind you that when Ştefan cel Mare built Cetatea Albă (Akkerman), he did not declare this on TV or radio, he just built it and even if it fell into hands of Turks the very next year, destroyed and rebuilt later by them, you can claim that Ştefan cel Mare is the founder of the fortress.Or shall Icorrect the "legend"?--Bryndza 15:03, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
::: The act of 1408 was a sign of administration, comparable with modern governments. The city was in business. There is unknown the person who build those walls, against what threat and the moment of the building. It will be intersting to know the relation between that King and that "stronghold" eventual he builded. It is unknown the sort of activities the inhabitants have had at that time. --Vasile 18:54, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I see this legend of unnamed (until now) fortress, develeping in a interesting manner. Please, don't stop. --Vasile 18:44, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I would not be so ironical, Vasile. This "legend" is supported by archeological and historical facts. The legend is what I just wrote in History of Moldova on origin of the name.--Bryndza 18:52, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There is a problem with irony in our country? --Vasile 01:49, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Let's see the theory in more details then. --Vasile 18:57, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Our education is in hands of each of us. The most important not to be open to it. Teach me your "legend"--Bryndza 18:58, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
While you refuse my version, I let this childish story, having no support of historians, as it is on the city web-site. --Vasile 23:20, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What was your story BTW? Did I miss it?--Bryndza 00:01, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
City Council established that the fort was "called" before it was mentioned. The process seems natural. First, the child learn to speak, then, after a numebr of years, to write. --Vasile 01:07, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]


I quote from the article: "From 1775, Czernowitz was a part of the Duchy of Bukovina crownland of the Austrian Empire." How did it become a province of the Austrian empire? Was it a natural process or merely an arbitrary annexation like many others in history when the strongest party prevailed? Whoever wrote this article certainly doesn't endorse a Romanian perspective. Northernmost Moldavia didn't become the Duchy of Bukovina out of thin air. The Habsburgs annexed the territory in the wake of some diplomatic manoeuvres, among which declaring a would-be epidemic of the plague in Galicia, which required a sanitary cordon (natives of the region have preserved the name of Cordon or Cordun for the region whence the family name Corduneanu, for example), folllowed by military occupation. The name Bukovina itself is a bit of Austrian propaganda engineering; it simply means beech tree forest, and the Moldavian natives hadn't previously named their territory like this. Moldavian voivode Grigore III Ghica was assassinated on October 1 1777, by the sultan's order and with Habsburg complicity, as he had protested against the Austrian takeover and threatened to respond militarily. Official statistics of the Austrian empire record that in 1779 the population of the newly acquired duchy was as follows: 116,926, out of which 87,811 Romanians, 21,114 Ruthenians (and Hutsuls), 8,000 Germans, Jews, Poles, Armenians etc. I suggest the author do something about explaining the circumstances that led to the transfer Moldavia-Austria-Romania-USSR-Ukraine.Gyula19 17:34, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
City article is too narrow to give this plot. Bukovina may be a more approptiate place. --Irpen 17:39, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Bryndza you're Romanian too, why are you taking the Rus' side, have you nothing better to do? Or you're not realizing that you're Romanian, and if that's true, the fact that you wrote an article about romanization is the most hilarious thing I have ever heard.danstn

Clean-up[edit]

After multiple edits, I decided to clean the language up. No real fact-checking. I'll add some additional geography and history when I can.--tufkaa 19:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Jewish community[edit]

Since the article talks about the disappearing Romanian population, I decided to add a few words about the city's once vibrant but now almost non-existant Jewish community. (unsigned)

Of course! Go right ahead but please consider creating an account and using it. It takes 10 seconds, does not even require an email and would make interaction between yourself and others much more comfortable. --Irpen 06:07, 23 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]


There is contradictory mention of Popovici, suggesting to Antonescu to raise the number of Jews to be deported, from 20000 to 200 - the contrary must be true! I recently read an article by the president of the Filderman society, published in Cluj, where he expresses enthusisastical thanks to Popovici for having saved (if I remember well, about) 20000 Jewish lived. One must mention, the author was clearly up to date with the most recent researchs on the subject... I believe this point must be reviewed! — Preceding unsigned comment added by PredaMi (talk • contribs) 18:40, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

History[edit]

Chernivtsi was once one of the great cities of Europe. As presently written the article does not cover that history adequately, merely noting a few factoids. Fred Bauder 14:27, 19 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Would you help expanding it? --Irpen 22:38, 19 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'll see what I can find. Fred Bauder 23:20, 19 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Famous Native personalities[edit]

BS"D

What happened here, it looks like someone copied from the Deutsch or Dutch Wiki. --Shaul avrom 22:36, 5 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Three comments[edit]

1. To say "Ukrainian sovereignty did not 'flourish'" sounds odd and is impenetrably vague. In English, "sovereignty" isn't normally said to be "flourishing" or "not flourishing" — in contrast to, for example, commerce flourishing. In context it sounds like a smokescreen for rival national claims on the ethnically mixed city.

2. The article notes that before WWII the city was about one-fifth German. It should be explained that these Czernowitzers were primarily the residue of the former Austrian (Austro-Hungarian) upper classes and officialdom. These German-speakers (during the Nazi period classified as Volksdeutsch) were resettled under terms of the Nazi-Soviet pact like those of the Baltic states — some to the so-called Wartheland in occupied Poland — under the slogan Heim ins Reich, whether they wanted to leave or not.

3. If a famous personalities section is added, it should include Gregor von Rezzori, a novelist who wrote in German. His autobiographical Snows of Yesteryear (original title: Blumen in Schnee) provides a vivid picture of this region. Sca 22:57, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A Fourth:

It is questionable that the Ukrainians saw the Romanians as unambiguous liberators. Sure, Soviet rule and its horrors would be ended, but clearly Romania did not have the liberation of Ukraine as an objective. Paul from Michigan (talk) 14:08, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Questionable demographic data[edit]

The table below was brought by user:Olahus. Data sources are not provided. Numbers look questionable. There is already a more general table with historical population data in the article. --Greggerr (talk) 00:15, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Chernivtsi (city) Chernivtsi (suburbs)
Year Romanians Ukrainians Romanians Ukrainians
1860 9.177 4.133 20.068 6.645
1870 5.999[citation needed] 5.831 28.315 35.011
1880 6.431 8.232 8.887 [citation needed] 23.051
1890 7.624 10.385 11.433 34.067
1900 9.400 13.030 13.252 25.476
1910 13.440 15.254 18.060 22.351

No industry?[edit]

I'd like to know what the people of the city do for a living - are there no important industries in Chernivtsi? Railway shops, chemicals plants, etc.? Tourism? Would be interesting! Maelli (talk) 12:35, 2 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Romanian / German communities[edit]

OK, Biruitorul, Livepuissa, can you two provide an reasonable explanation why you included this article into category named "Romanian communities in Ukraine"? Article states that 79.8% of population of this city are ethnic Ukrainians, so how exactly it could be described as "Romanian community"? Perhaps you do not speak English well, but term "Romanian community" in English could refer either to localities with Romanian ethnic majority either to "ethnic communities of Romanians" in certain localities. In the second case, category "Romanian communities" could be used for some article named "Romanians in Chernivtsi", but Chernivtsi city itself is an ethnic Ukrainian community, not Romanian one, and readers of this article would be misguided by such wrong categorization. As for revert made by Biruitorul with explanation "see the 1930 census", I do not see how you can categorize an geographical article in accordance with an historical data. This is the year 2012 and we have to classify geographical articles in accordance with current political and demographical situation. Following the logic which ignoring current situation and which glorify certain time periods, we could categorize this article under category "Cities in Romania" (if we like 1930 situation) or perhaps under category "Cities in Austria-Hungary" (if we like 1910 situation). But, this is ridiculous. Wikipedia is not an alternate history forum and we are obligated to have accurate categorization and not to misguide readers. And one additional important thing: 1930 census shows that city in that time was ethnically mixed, i.e. populated by multiple ethnicities, so we cannot say that this city was an "ethnic community" of any ethnic group in that year. PANONIAN 20:39, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If article X is included in category Y, it does not mean X is (can be described as) a Y. For instance Banat of Temeswar is not (can not be described as) a Habsburg Serbia. The tag must be interpreted like this "Chernivtsi has a Romanian community" 79.117.168.230 (talk) 07:41, 17 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You are absolutely right about Habsburg Serbia - it was only an (bad) attempt of diffusion of category "History of Serbia", but I now renamed category "Habsburg Serbia" to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:History_of_Serbia_during_Habsburg_administration (thank you for notifying me about problematic meaning of that category). Regarding Chernivtsi article, it is one thing how you say that category must be interpreted, but reality is something else and most readers would think that this whole city is an Romanian community if they find that article within that category. So, let move this to the ground of Wikipedia policies. So far, claim that this city is an Romanian community is example of original research (see this, please: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research ) and we did not saw a presentation of an reliable source that says that city of Chernivtsi is an "Romanian community". Can you please present an reliable source that says that? Also, criteria by which this category was included into some articles is completely unclear to me: for example, there are 500,000 Romanians in USA and 200,000 in Germany, so why these countries were not tagged as "Romanian communities" as well? By which criteria was this city selected for such tagging? PANONIAN 10:37, 17 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I understand your point, and I agree. However it is a quite common practice on wp. See for example Category:Russian_communities in the United States 79.117.209.62 (talk) 10:59, 17 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I noticed that this categorization was wrongly used in various articles and that is why I started to recategorize them (problem is that my edits were reverted in several places by other users). Regarding the issue of Romanian communities, I believe that best way of elaborating where Romanians in Ukraine are living is to expand article Romanians in Ukraine with an list of administrative units and cities and number of Romanians in each of them. Something similar was implemented here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarians_in_slovakia#Towns_with_large_Hungarian_populations I think that it is the best way of presentation of such info - filling various categories with various articles will certainly not help the readers to know more about ethnic groups that live in these places. Expansion of articles with relevant data is certainly better solution. PANONIAN 11:12, 17 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I do not want to go and have a look at Cluj. Or should I? Or even the name of Temeshwar, which should make no sense on the Wiki for the same reasons mentioned by PANONIAN - because Temeshburg is the correct german word, but the English having had no relations what so ever to the region, have no reason to adopt an old Hungarian name rather than the Romanian Timisoara - and they do so. Coming to Cernăuţi, it happens to have been a Romanian city it mots of its history, since 1400 to 1800, so there is a good reason to see there. It is correct to use the present Ucrainian name, but mention the romanian one too, since it appears any how in the history. This is more sensible than referring to the large table of names of cities, where Cernăuţi is not. Can we have some polite common sensic people around?PredaMi (talk) 18:49, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Names in the infobox and introduction[edit]

Please can we call a halt to edits to this for the time being. If anyone objects to the present version, please can they discuss their proposed changes here so we can arrive at a consensus.--Toddy1 (talk) 21:01, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand why the Romanian name was deleted from the introduction. I believe that it's unfair due to its Romanian history and community still living there. Porcina (talk) 11:35, 30 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Ukranian wiki[edit]

some of the materials in education and architecture were taken from ukrainian wiki --Sorrow3 (talk) 12:17, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Orphaned references in Chernivtsi[edit]

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Chernivtsi's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "encyclopedia":

  • From Ukrainian embroidery: Catherine Amoroso Leslie. Needlework Through History: An Encyclopedia . Greenwood Press, 2007.
  • From Bukovina: "Bukovyna". Internet Encyclopedia of Ukraine. Archived from the original on 13 May 2021. Retrieved 22 June 2021.
  • From Siret: "Seret". Internet Encyclopedia of Ukraine. Archived from the original on 25 June 2021. Retrieved 22 June 2021.
  • From Ivan Mazepa: "Encyclopedia of Ukraine". Encyclopediaofukraine.com. Retrieved 8 May 2013.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 09:58, 30 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:10, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Any Citable Sources on Air Attacks on Chernivsti during the current Invasion?[edit]

I don’t know if the city has been struck or not. Trying to get a translate tool to check local online news outlets.

Does Wikipedia allow foreign language citations? The two most common languages in Ukraine are Ukrainian followed by Russian.

Chesapeake77 (talk) 16:17, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Was able to use Google Translate on Google Search (translate does not work on Safari for Ukrainian) and read Chernivsti-based newspapers.
No air attacks reported to date in Chernivsti— but there is a program underway to remove all street signs in the area, in order to confuse / hamper the invading army when it arrives.
This might be better added to the Chernivsti Oblast(county) article as this removal of all street signs is an Oblast-wide effort, including the city of Chernivsti.
Chesapeake77 (talk) 19:21, 27 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I checked and Wikipedia DOES allow foreign language citations for it's articles. However the specific language of the source must be noted in the citation in order to aid translation.
Chesapeake77 (talk) 16:46, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Two (briefly paraphrased) notable city defense announcements by Mayor of Chernivsti, pertaining to current Russian invasion[edit]

As is customary for a major current event affecting a city-- I added a small section at the very bottom of the article. Should the details expand significantly, a second article will be created-- entitled "Attack on Chernitsvi during the 2022 Russian Invasion" (or something similar) and will be linked from this article, according to Wikipedia policy.

Two notable announcements made by the Mayor of Chernivsti today, about the preparation of city defenses against the Russian invasion, were added and cited.

I checked and Wikipedia DOES allow foreign language citations for it's articles. However the specific language of the source must be noted in the citation, in order to aid translation. Which was done.

A Chernivsti city newspaper (online) was cited, dated today.

Chesapeake77 (talk) 16:56, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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