Talk:Necho II

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ancient Egypt, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Egyptological subjects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ancient EgyptWikipedia:WikiProject Ancient EgyptTemplate:WikiProject Ancient EgyptAncient Egypt articles

Mid

This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

WikiProject Ancient Egypt to-do list:

Needed articles.

We should have an article on every pyramid and every nome in Ancient Egypt. I'm sure the rest of us can think of other articles we should have.

Cleanup.

To start with, most of the general history articles badly need attention. And I'm told that at least some of the dynasty articles need work. Any other candidates?

Standardize the Chronology.

A boring task, but the benefit of doing it is that you can set the dates !(e.g., why say Khufu lived 2589-2566? As long as you keep the length of his reign correct, or cite a respected source, you can date it 2590-2567 or 2585-2563)

Stub sorting

Anyone? I consider this probably the most unimportant of tasks on Wikipedia, but if you believe it needs to be done . . .

Data sorting.

This is a project I'd like to take on some day, & could be applied to more of Wikipedia than just Ancient Egypt. Take one of the standard authorities of history or culture -- Herotodus, the Elder Pliny, the writings of Breasted or Kenneth Kitchen, & see if you can't smoothly merge quotations or information into relevant articles. Probably a good exercise for someone who owns one of those impressive texts, yet can't get access to a research library.

Biography: Royalty and Nobility

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	This article is supported by WikiProject Royalty and Nobility.

Untitled[edit]

Many current historians tend to believe Herodotus on this point, mostly because he stated with disbelief that the Phoenicians had the sun on their right hand all the time - in Herodotus's time it was not known that Africa extended south beyond the equator.

I have read the reference in Herodotus, and I've heard this explanation before, but after years of just being familiar with the reference I'm still not sure what this means. How did they have the sun on their right hand the whole time? If they sailed south, across the equator, and then north, across the equator again, how does the sun change position? I get the feeling there is something very obvious that I'm missing...hopefully someone can explain it. Adam Bishop 18:28, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

part of the voyage, in southern Africa, would have been sailed westward. And this is the part where they have the sun at the right and Herodot would have expected it at their left. However, to make this true it is necessary that they sailed the Guinea coast during the northern hemisphere Summer, because otherwise it would have been to their left in this period. - Andre Engels 08:47, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Oh yeah...see I knew there was something obvious I was missing :) Adam Bishop 15:09, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Seems to have disappeared[edit]

Got lost here diff=prev&oldid=7473694

According to the Greek historian Herodotus, Necho II sent out an expedition of Phoenicians, which in three years sailed from the Red Sea around Africa to the mouth of the Nile. Many current historians tend to believe Herodotus on this point, mostly because he stated with disbelief that the Phoenicians had the sun on their right hand all the time - in Herodotus's time it was not known that Africa extended south beyond the equator.

Putting it back in ... J. D. Redding 23:59, 7 June 2007 (UTC) The introduction is a bit confused when it uses the word "probably". Presumably no contemporary source refers to him as Necho II. So what cross-reference between figures in Egyptian, Biblical, Greek (and possibly Babylonian) records are we proposing here? PatGallacher (talk) 20:43, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No tomb and no mummy? Do we have any Egyptologists here? --Anaccuratesource (talk) 03:29, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Giant overhaul[edit]

It's been a while, but I'm not sure I agree with these 180 edits by user Reddi. Some of the new lay-out was and is sloppy, and unencyclopedic things like advising readers what to look at and what to believe are too common. Especially when claiming that the Phoenician Expedition around Africa could never have happened, and that sources on it are to be doubted. Not sure how to go about it though. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 18:38, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

African expedition[edit]

Before Reddi:

Herodotus (4.42) also reports that Necho sent out an expedition of Phoenicians, who in three years sailed from the Red Sea around Africa back to the mouth of the Nile.^[1] Some current historians tend to believe Herodotus' account, primarily because he stated with disbelief that the Phoenicians " as they sailed on a westerly course round the southern end of Libya (Africa), they had the sun on their right - to northward of them" (The Histories 4.42) -- in Herodotus' time it was not known that Africa extended south past the equator; however, Egyptologists also point out that it would have been extremely unusual for an Egyptian Pharaoh to carry out such an expedition.^[2] Alan B. Lloyd doubts the event and attributes the development of the story by other events.^[3]

Reddi's version, which I later tweaked with an edit summary saying it needed more work:

At some point between 610 and before 594 BC, Necho reputedly commissioned an expedition of Phoenicians,^[4] who it is said in three years sailed from the Red Sea around Africa back to the mouth of the Nile.^[5]^[6] The belief in Herodotus' account, handed down to him by oral tradition,^[7] is primarily because he stated with disbelief that the Phoenicians "as they sailed on a westerly course round the southern end of Libya (Africa), they had the sun on their right" - to northward of them (The Histories 4.42^[8]) -- in Herodotus' time it was not generally known that Africa was surrounded by an ocean (with the southern part of Africa being thought connected to Asia^[9]); however, some Egyptologists dispute that an Egyptian Pharaoh would authorize such an expedition,^[10] except for the reasons of Asiatic conquest^[11]^[12] and trade in the ancient maritime routes.^[13] This early description of Necho's expedition as a whole is contentious, it is recommended that one keep an open mind on the subject;^[14] but Strabo, Polybius, and Ptolemy doubted the description. Egyptologist A. B. Lloyd also sides with these Ancient Grecian scholars in doubting the event, attributing the development of the story to other events.^[15] Regardless, it was believed by Herodotus and Pliny,^[16] along with other Egyptologists.^[17]^[18]

Doug Weller talk 20:49, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Loyd siding with himself?[edit]

Regarding the Phoenician Expedition: "Some modern Egyptologists dispute that an Egyptian Pharaoh would authorize such an expedition, ..." This is sourced with a reference that starts with "For instance, the Egyptologist Alan Lloyd" and only mentions his view. That's giving undue weight to one Egyptologist but not really the main issue. The very next sentence is then "Egyptologist A. B. Lloyd also sides with these Ancient Grecian scholars in doubting the event, attributing the development of the story to other events." It even cites THE EXACT SAME ARTICLE! Not sure how this happened but it's getting confusing. I'm merging the two refs and removing the first part. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 16:10, 11 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Note however that though the original documents state "Red Sea", many ancient manuscripts reference the "Mediterranean Sea" as the "Red Sea". See History of Suez Canal and painting by Wybylack for more detail.
^ For instance, the Egyptologist Alan Lloyd wrote "Given the context of Egyptian thought, economic life, and military interests, it is impossible for one to imagine what stimulus could have motivated Necho in such a scheme and if we cannot provide a reason which is sound within Egyptian terms of reference, then we have good reason to doubt the historicity of the entire episode." Alan B. Lloyd, "Necho and the Red Sea: Some Considerations", Journal of Egyptian Archaeology, 63 (1977) p.149.
^ Lloyd points out that geographical knowledge at the time of Herodutus was such that Greeks would know that such a voyage would entail the sun being on their right but did not believe Africa could extend far enough for this to happen. He suggests that the Greeks at this time understood that anyone going south far enough and then turning west would have the sun on their right but found it unbelievable that Africa reached so far south. He suggests that "It is extremely unlikely that an Egyptian king would, or could, have acted as Necho is depicted as doing" and that the story might have been triggered by the failure of Sataspes attempt to circumnavigate Africa under Xerxes the Great. For more see: Lloyd, Alan B. "Necho and the Red Sea: Some Considerations Journal of Egyptian Archaeology, Vol. 63, (1977), pp. 142-155
^ Unlikely with the intent of circumnavigating Africa, but for finding an alternative route to Asia than through the area near the Levant. Also, such voyages were undertaken for trading with more southern African cities; thereafter being blown off-course, if not tasked to sail around the lands.
^ Israel, India, Persia, Phoenicia, Minor nations of western Asia. Edited by Henry Smith Williams. p118
^ Anthony Tony Browder, Nile valley contributions to civilization,Volume 1. 1992 (cf. In the Twenty Fifth Dynasty, during the reign of Necho II, navigational technology had advanced to the point where sailors from Kemet successfully circumnavigated Africa and drew an extremely accurate map of the continent.)
^ M. J. Cary. The Ancient Explorers. Penguin Books, 1963. Page 114
^ As for Libya, we know it to be washed on all sides by the sea, except where it is attached to Asia. This discovery was first made by Necos, the Egyptian king, who on desisting from the canal which he had begun between the Nile and the Arabian gulf, sent to sea a number of ships manned by Phoenicians, with orders to make for the Pillars of Hercules, and return to Egypt through them, and by the Mediterranean. The Phoenicians took their departure from Egypt by way of the Erythraean sea, and so sailed into the southern ocean. When autumn came, they went ashore, wherever they might happen to be, and having sown a tract of land with corn, waited until the grain was fit to cut. Having reaped it, they again set sail; and thus it came to pass that two whole years went by, and it was not till the third year that they doubled the Pillars of Hercules, and made good their voyage home. On their return, they declared- I for my part do not believe them, but perhaps others may- that in sailing round Libya they had the sun upon their right hand. In this way was the extent of Libya first discovered. "Book 4" . History of Herodotus – via Wikisource.
^ Die umsegelung Asiens und Europas auf der Vega. Volume 2. By Adolf Erik Nordenskiöld. p148
^ For instance, the Egyptologist Alan Lloyd wrote "Given the context of Egyptian thought, economic life, and military interests, it is impossible for one to imagine what stimulus could have motivated Necho in such a scheme and if we cannot provide a reason which is sound within Egyptian terms of reference, then we have good reason to doubt the historicity of the entire episode." Alan B. Lloyd, "Necho and the Red Sea: Some Considerations", Journal of Egyptian Archaeology, 63 (1977) p.149.
^ Twentieth Century. Twentieth century, 1908. p816
^ The Historians' History of the World. Edited by Henry Smith Williams. p286 (cf. Syria seems to have submitted to him, as far as the countries bordering the Euphrates. Gaza offered resistance, but was taken. But it was only for a short time that Neku II could feel himself a conqueror.)
^ Cosmos: A Sketch of a Physical Description of the Universe. By Alexander von Humboldt. p489
^ The Cambridge History of the British Empire. CUP Archive, 1963. p56
^ Lloyd is to hold the position that geographical knowledge at the time of Herodutus was such that Greeks would know that such a voyage would entail the sun being on their right but did not believe Africa could extend far enough for this to happen. He suggests that the Greeks at this time understood that anyone going south far enough and then turning west would have the sun on their right but found it unbelievable that Africa reached so far south. He suggests that "It is extremely unlikely that an Egyptian king would, or could, have acted as Necho is depicted as doing" and that the story might have been triggered by the failure of Sataspes attempt to circumnavigate Africa under Xerxes the Great. For more on such opinion, see: Lloyd, Alan B. "Necho and the Red Sea: Some Considerations Journal of Egyptian Archaeology, Vol. 63, (1977), pp. 142-155
^ The Geographical system of Herodotus By James Rennel. p348+
^ History of Egypt. By F. C. H. Wendel. American Book Co., 1890. p127 (cf. Herodotus relates a story of a great maritime enterprise undertaken at this time which seems quite credible. He states that Nekau sent out Phoenician ships from the Red Sea to circumnavigate Africa, and that in the third year of their journey they returned to the Mediterranean through the Straits of Gibraltar.)
^ The Story of the Pharaohs. By James Baikie. p316

Too many explanatory footnotes[edit]

Footnotes should be reserved for references, unless used to explain a symbol or for other technical reasons. There's too many footnotes which comprise of a paragraph of explanatory text, this should be included in the main text or removed. It clogs up the references section and makes the sources harder to read.

[1] Note however that though the original documents state "Red Sea", many ancient manuscripts reference the "Mediterranean Sea" as the "Red Sea". See History of Suez Canal and painting by Wybylack for more detail.

[2] For instance, the Egyptologist Alan Lloyd wrote "Given the context of Egyptian thought, economic life, and military interests, it is impossible for one to imagine what stimulus could have motivated Necho in such a scheme and if we cannot provide a reason which is sound within Egyptian terms of reference, then we have good reason to doubt the historicity of the entire episode." Alan B. Lloyd, "Necho and the Red Sea: Some Considerations", Journal of Egyptian Archaeology, 63 (1977) p.149.

[3] Lloyd points out that geographical knowledge at the time of Herodutus was such that Greeks would know that such a voyage would entail the sun being on their right but did not believe Africa could extend far enough for this to happen. He suggests that the Greeks at this time understood that anyone going south far enough and then turning west would have the sun on their right but found it unbelievable that Africa reached so far south. He suggests that "It is extremely unlikely that an Egyptian king would, or could, have acted as Necho is depicted as doing" and that the story might have been triggered by the failure of Sataspes attempt to circumnavigate Africa under Xerxes the Great. For more see: Lloyd, Alan B. "Necho and the Red Sea: Some Considerations Journal of Egyptian Archaeology, Vol. 63, (1977), pp. 142-155

[4] Unlikely with the intent of circumnavigating Africa, but for finding an alternative route to Asia than through the area near the Levant. Also, such voyages were undertaken for trading with more southern African cities; thereafter being blown off-course, if not tasked to sail around the lands.

[5] Israel, India, Persia, Phoenicia, Minor nations of western Asia. Edited by Henry Smith Williams. p118

[6] Anthony Tony Browder, Nile valley contributions to civilization,Volume 1. 1992 (cf. In the Twenty Fifth Dynasty, during the reign of Necho II, navigational technology had advanced to the point where sailors from Kemet successfully circumnavigated Africa and drew an extremely accurate map of the continent.)

[7] M. J. Cary. The Ancient Explorers. Penguin Books, 1963. Page 114

[8] As for Libya, we know it to be washed on all sides by the sea, except where it is attached to Asia. This discovery was first made by Necos, the Egyptian king, who on desisting from the canal which he had begun between the Nile and the Arabian gulf, sent to sea a number of ships manned by Phoenicians, with orders to make for the Pillars of Hercules, and return to Egypt through them, and by the Mediterranean. The Phoenicians took their departure from Egypt by way of the Erythraean sea, and so sailed into the southern ocean. When autumn came, they went ashore, wherever they might happen to be, and having sown a tract of land with corn, waited until the grain was fit to cut. Having reaped it, they again set sail; and thus it came to pass that two whole years went by, and it was not till the third year that they doubled the Pillars of Hercules, and made good their voyage home. On their return, they declared- I for my part do not believe them, but perhaps others may- that in sailing round Libya they had the sun upon their right hand. In this way was the extent of Libya first discovered. "Book 4" . History of Herodotus – via Wikisource.

[9] Die umsegelung Asiens und Europas auf der Vega. Volume 2. By Adolf Erik Nordenskiöld. p148

[10] For instance, the Egyptologist Alan Lloyd wrote "Given the context of Egyptian thought, economic life, and military interests, it is impossible for one to imagine what stimulus could have motivated Necho in such a scheme and if we cannot provide a reason which is sound within Egyptian terms of reference, then we have good reason to doubt the historicity of the entire episode." Alan B. Lloyd, "Necho and the Red Sea: Some Considerations", Journal of Egyptian Archaeology, 63 (1977) p.149.

[11] Twentieth Century. Twentieth century, 1908. p816

[12] The Historians' History of the World. Edited by Henry Smith Williams. p286 (cf. Syria seems to have submitted to him, as far as the countries bordering the Euphrates. Gaza offered resistance, but was taken. But it was only for a short time that Neku II could feel himself a conqueror.)

[13] Cosmos: A Sketch of a Physical Description of the Universe. By Alexander von Humboldt. p489

[14] The Cambridge History of the British Empire. CUP Archive, 1963. p56

[15] Lloyd is to hold the position that geographical knowledge at the time of Herodutus was such that Greeks would know that such a voyage would entail the sun being on their right but did not believe Africa could extend far enough for this to happen. He suggests that the Greeks at this time understood that anyone going south far enough and then turning west would have the sun on their right but found it unbelievable that Africa reached so far south. He suggests that "It is extremely unlikely that an Egyptian king would, or could, have acted as Necho is depicted as doing" and that the story might have been triggered by the failure of Sataspes attempt to circumnavigate Africa under Xerxes the Great. For more on such opinion, see: Lloyd, Alan B. "Necho and the Red Sea: Some Considerations Journal of Egyptian Archaeology, Vol. 63, (1977), pp. 142-155

[16] The Geographical system of Herodotus By James Rennel. p348+

[17] History of Egypt. By F. C. H. Wendel. American Book Co., 1890. p127 (cf. Herodotus relates a story of a great maritime enterprise undertaken at this time which seems quite credible. He states that Nekau sent out Phoenician ships from the Red Sea to circumnavigate Africa, and that in the third year of their journey they returned to the Mediterranean through the Straits of Gibraltar.)

[18] The Story of the Pharaohs. By James Baikie. p316

[1]

[2]

[3]

[4]

[5]

[6]

[7]

[8]

[9]

[10]

[11]

[12]

[13]

[14]

[15]

[16]

[17]

[18]