Talk:Abdul Abulbul Amir

Folk song?

I find the sentence that this is "folk song written by Percy French and later set to music" to be very confusing. Are folk songs written by people? Are songs written then later set to music? I'm too lazy to research this history but I wish someone would.

I guess a song becomes a "Folk Song" when nobody remembers who wrote it, or the author is long dead, the copyright (if any) expired, and nobody cares. This poem used to be widely anthologized under the author's name back in the days when people actually read books.--Saxophobia 20:06, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

It does sound like a contradiction in terms, but there are other cases where a folk song began life as a poem and was later adapted to either a musical air that already existed or was in the appropriate style: Percy French's own "Gortnamona", "Down By The Sally Gardens" by William Butler Yeats, and Jerusalem -- words by William Blake, 1804, music by Hubert Parry, 1916. Another example is where new words were custom-fitted to an existing melody, like The Red Flag by Jim Connell for the tune of "The White Cockade" (and later the much drearier "Tannenbaum"), or "On Raglan Road", by Patrick Kavanagh, for the air "The Dawning of the Day". Of course, if you try that and you're not a Connell or a Kavanagh, you might just end up with filk. Ben-w 05:12, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

As to what makes a "folk" song a "folk" song, I would offer the following. It's not that the author is necessarily unknown, though he/she might be. Certainly Stephen Foster or Henry Clay Work's compositions would now be considered "folk songs"--or Woodie Guthrie's--and we know who all those composers were. IMO, it's a question to whether the pieces were widely performed by amateur musicians, and got into very, very wide circulation that way. On the other question asked above--it can be that one person writes words, perhaps not even intended to be a song, and another sets them to music. Or else--as attested by all the two-person writing teams like Rodgers and Hart, Gilbert and Sullivan, etc., one specializes in lyrics, another in melodies. It can also happen, as it did with "Listen to the Mockingbird," that one person writes a melody and later another person puts words to it. Creativity happens in many unscripted ways. Terry J. Carter (talk) 03:57, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Eisenhower's favorite song

If you go to the Eisenhower Farm at Gettysburg Pa. as the guide takes you through his main living room the guide will tell you that this was loved by the General. He played it on the piano, and sung it with much gusto but very little quality at family gatherings. Maybe it stems from a marching song during his West Point days. He did not make it to WW1.72.228.50.136 13:56, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

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Tighten up the introduction

Need to fix the following line: "It tells the story of two valiant heroes — a Russian and one of the Shah's mamelukes" Given the geographical reference to the Danube and the poem's reference to 'the Sultan,' it's not likely any Shah was associated with the poem. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.180.79.243 (talk) 00:57, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Though the Sultan also affected the title Padishah (king of kings) which, you might argue, was a kind of shah. Francis Davey (talk) 19:26, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Doubts about title and text

I have a copy of "The Scottish Student's Song Book" dated 1897 in which this appears under the title "Abdul, the Bulbul Ameer", and with words similar, but not identical, to those given here. No author is given for the words, but there is an acknowledgement "By special permission of Mr. John Blockley, 16 Mortimer Street, London W." The tune is attributed to "Ali Baba".

In view of the date, this must be a more credible version of Percy French's original than Frank Crumit's is. I'm inclined to make a corresponding move and edits at some point in time, but if anyone has any better information, please give it here. SamuelTheGhost (talk)

Brendan O'Dowda the Irish Folksinger, interviewed the daughters of Percy French and researched the original song in 1981. He also claimed to have gotten a bregrudging acknowledgement from the publishers that Percy was the actual author. The lyrics in O'Dowda's 'The World of Percy French' differs from what he identifies as 'the pirated version' in several respects. Abdullah Bulbul Ameer is the spelling for the Turk, and Ivan Potschinski Skidar is the spelling for the Russian.

Phonetically the Turks name translates to Abdul Serving Allah as the Nightengale Prince. Skivdas is sometimes identified as rude British slang for chambermaid, so it may well be that French deliberately created a spoof of comic opera. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.233.198.46 (talk) 07:01, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

In the 1928 sequel to Beau Geste, the novelist has a femme fatale whistle a tune (which the narrator identified as 'that popular aire') then she sings a verse to tease the French Legionairre she calls 'Major Ivan.' She uses the words 'Ivan Potschjinski Skivah.' So again in 1928 (this is before Crummit) the lyrics were closer to French's original than the words known to WWII veterans, which due to vaudville and radio, were likely Crummit's version. 76.233.198.239 (talk) 20:03, 21 November 2010 (UTC) foxtale

Similar Version

For what it's worth, here's the version I learned as a child (the biggest difference seems to be the line about Caruso): jaknouse (talk) 14:16, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

The sons of the prophets were mighty and bold,

And quite unaccustomed to fear,

But the bravest of all was a man, I am told,

Named Abdul the Bulbul Emir.

If they needed a man to encourage the van,

Or to harass the foe from the rear,

Or to storm a redoubt, they would send up a shout,

For Abdul the Bulbul Emir.

There were heroes aplenty and men known to fame

Who fought in the ranks of the Tsar,

But none of more fame than a man by the name,

Of Ivan Skvinsky Skvar.

He could sing like Caruso, both tenor and bass,

He could play on the Spanish guitar--

In fact, quite the cream of the Muscovite team

Was Ivan Skvinsky Skvar.

One day this bold Muscovite shouldered his gun

And walked down the street with a sneer.

He was looking for fun when he happened to run

Across Abdul the Bulbul Emir.

"Young man," said Abdul, "Is existence so dull

You wish to end your earthly career?

For, infidel know, you have trod on the toe

Of Abdul the Bulbul Emir!"

"So take your last look at sunshine and brook

And send your regards to the Tsar--

By which I imply you are going to die,

Mr. Ivan Skvinsky Skvar!"

Then this bold Mameluke drew his trusty chibook

Crying "Allah! Oh, Allah akbar!"

And with murderous intent, he most suddenly went

For Ivan Skvinsky Skvar.

On a stone by the bank where the Neva doth roll

Is written in characters clear:

"Oh, stranger, remember to pray for the soul

Of Abdul the Bulbul Emir!"

While a Muscovite maiden her vigil doth keep

By the light of the cold northern star,

And the name that she constantly cries in her sleep

Is "Ivan Skvinsky Skvar."

Variant Lines

"He could imitate Irving, play euchre or pool, And perform on the Spanish guitar ...."

Now I have to try to find the source, don't I?

Terry J. Carter (talk) 03:44, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Why the quatrain lineation?

by which I mean each text line in the box contains four lines of the conventional song lyrics layout. Mind you, I agree it's less tiresome than scrolling a long way down the page; but does anybody else find, as I do, that it conveys less of the feeling of the rhythm and rhymes than when set out like the preceding talk section here ("Similar Version")? I am just asking Iph (talk) 15:21, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Lyrics and Citation Do Not Match

Someone appears to have edited the lyrics without correcting the citation. I'm looking at the source cited right now, and the title and lyrics do not match those given. I'm thinking that, in addition to correcting the source for the lyrics as given, the page may need editing to add multiple versions. Source of evidence for error here.Infinityseed (talk) 03:22, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

A variant

The version I first heard (& cannot fully remember) is obviously a total parody, is very rude & crude yet quite funny in the main. I get the impression that it was probably the work of more than one person, probably in the army. One of the milder verses is as follows: Where's Daniel cried the king He is in the lions den replied the courtiers What does he there asked the king Why Daniel looks at the lions & the lions look at Daniel replied the courtiers. Daniel was in the courtyard having a camel-shit fight with the pageboys Daniel come forth cried the king but Daniel slipping on a greasy turd came fifth.

There is much of this sort of irrelevant(?) preamble before actual contact between Abdul & Ivan. I think that this version should also be recorded but I'm not sure where. Does anyone out there know the full version?

101.164.99.156 (talk) 11:04, 13 January 2014 (UTC)Falah 13/01/2014 <ref...Heard only.

Sultan's mamelukes?

There is nothing in the lyrics to suggest that Abdul is a mameluke, or for that matter that he fights for the Sultan. His employer is in fact referred to as the "Shah", implying Persian, not the Ottoman Empire.

Well but

1. It was written during a Russian-Turkish war (granted the Russians also fought the Persians at various times IIRC)
2. The person's name is "Abdul Abulbul Amir", and his weapon is a "skibouk"
3. Granted it says "in the ranks of the Shah", but later it says "The Sultan drove by in his red-breasted fly". I wouldn't read too much into either one... it's a song not a historical essay
4. Abdul Abulbul Amir's tomb is by the Danube, Turkish territory far from Persia. Herostratus (talk) 20:40, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Reporters

The section on the cartoon states that one of the reporters was Lou Costello. However, their first movie One Night in the Tropics was just coming out when the cartoon was being made and before that, Abbot and Costello were mostly famous from radio. A friend of mine thinks it was supposed to be Curly Howard, but has no source. I'm not going to tag the article at this time, but if anybody can clear this up properly it would be appreciated. JDZeff (talk) 22:37, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Title of the piece

There are three titles that I know of (there may be more):

• Abdul Abulbul Amir
• Abdulla Bulbul Ameer
• Abdulah Bul Bul Ameer

Of these, the second ("Abdulla Bulbul Ameer") is vouchsafed to the French's original title, but the first ("Abdul Abulbul Amir") is the most popular according to this Ngram and so should remain the title of the article and take pride of place in the lede IMO. Apparently French's original was privately published and had limited circulation, so in one sense it's not very important actually. Herostratus (talk) 03:19, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

I suppose this depends on whether one is striving for ease of use or historical accuracy; my own sense is that in a proper encyclopedia, historical accuracy ought to take precedent. I would also point to the admin comment at http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=47949#717249, and suggest that the DTrad policy seems particularly relevant in the context of a discussion about folk songs and songs which have been folk-processed. (The fuller discussion of the song itself at http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=47949 supplies a great variety of additional material that I do not have time to properly incorporate right now....) --2601:1C0:5A01:A5A0:C33:210E:A7B:25E1 (talk) 04:11, 11 February 2017 (UTC)John C. Bunnell (www.lonepenman.net)

Well, the implication that I'm not interested in accuracy is fairly insulting, and that's not helpful. There are different ways to be accurate. New York was originally New Amsterdam. Is New Amsterdam the "correct" name for the city and New York a "wrong" name? Of course not. You happen to believe that the original writer's title of this folk song is, and I guess always will be, the correct title. It's your personal opinion, which you're entitled to, but that's all it is. I prefer most frequent usage per WP:COMMONNAME, and the Google Ngram tells me its most likely Abdul Abulbul Amir. That's my opinion. I can't prove I'm right and neither can you.

I don't know what Mudcat is. I'm willing to listen to, but not be controlled by, their moderators' opinions of how the world should work. (It does look like an interesting site, but it doesn't look like material site itself is a usable source. But they may point to useful published sources.)

If you want to initiate a Wikipedia:Requested move to move the article to French's original title, fine, we can discuss the matter and maybe you'll win the day, and if so fine. Until then, IMO the opening of the lede should match the article title (with, of course French's title and maybe other variant titles mentioned along the way). Herostratus (talk) 06:11, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

Proper discussion of the merits will need to wait on RL issues on my end, but I do need to say one thing promptly: I apologize for my tone above. I was writing in a great hurry and not paying enough attention to how I was coming across. On rereading, I regret that, and I realize that I didn't do a good job of conveying what I *meant* to convey, which has more to do with different authorial/editorial/scholarly purposes than with accuracy per se. Again - I do have more in mind on this matter, once time permits, and I hope when that happens that you'll forgive my lapse above. 2601:1C0:5A01:A5A0:C33:210E:A7B:25E1 (talk) 22:08, 12 February 2017 (UTC) John C. Bunnell (www.lonepenman.net)

OK, sure, of course, relax, it's fine. Herostratus (talk) 04:12, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Mudcat is a highly respected online discussion forum specialising in all matters pertaining to the world of English folk music, including music-hall. As there is little academic interest in the field (and the feeling of disdain is likely mutual in the other direction) it's as close as you'll come to academic authority on the matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.219.67.184 (talk) 06:00, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

Homophobia

Do we really need to include the homophobic "explicit" lyrics in their entirety, especially without so much as a comment as to the problematic content? Loopus (talk) 02:01, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

I deleted the lyrics. If you feel like they belong here, feel free to make your case Loopus (talk) 03:03, 15 September 2022 (UTC)