Wikipedia talk:Notability (music)

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WP:REALITYSINGER[edit]

Does WP:REALITYSINGER apply to bands as well? - Pottyantós WC (talk) 14:49, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Clarity needed for criterion #11 with respect to internet radio[edit]

I observed this edit by the subject of the draft (a one-man-band) in an attempt to meet WP:BAND #11 ("Has been placed in rotation nationally by a major radio or music television network"). Apparently he's convinced himself that a streaming music service qualifies as a "major radio or music television network."

This criterion might be a source of confusion nowadays because it was written in 2008, before streaming music services, particularly internet radio, became widely available. Spotify, for example, wasn't even available in the United Statis or the UK until after 2010. Same for mSpot.

Some clarity is needed about whether being in rotation on a streaming platform counts toward notability. My inclination is to say that this doesn't confer notability. Especially considering that Spotify offers advice for unsigned artists to self-publish their music on Spotify.

It's like a wine appearing on a scorecard in Wine Spectator doesn't make a wine notable, because such publications evaluate thousands of wines. That's their function. Internet radio services are similar; they want to maximize the size of their catalog because that's part of their business model. These services can cheaply stream songs from all manner of non-notable obscure artists as a means to attract niche audiences, with no downside. ~Anachronist (talk) 23:49, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, the whole idea is that terrestrial radio and television had limited airtime, so any band breaking into that rotation was a significant accomplishment, but anybody can get a song on Spotify. However, there might be a more restrictive component of major Internet radio stations that could conceivably qualify; I don't use Spotify, but something akin to the Bandcamp Album of the Day is closer to the spirit of #11. Chubbles (talk) 02:33, 24 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Major music award[edit]

I searched archives here but could not find a definitive answer on what constitutes a "major music award" per WP:NMUSICIAN #8 which states, "has won or been nominated for a major music award, such as a Grammy, Juno, Mercury, Choice or Grammis award." The question I have stems from an AfD I initiated for Nkosazana Daughter. Would like feedback on whether "Soundcity MVP Award" or "Basadi in Music Award" would be considered a "major music award" per the guideline. Hoping for feedback to determine if I should withdraw the nomination which I will do if they are considered such. CNMall41 (talk) 03:59, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not South African, but the Basadi in Music Awards are covered by major South African newspapers (e.g., [1], [2]), so I would argue yes on WP:MUSIC #8. Chubbles (talk) 06:00, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Generally, we look to reliable sources to tell us whether an award is "major" or not. An award that gets GNG-worthy coverage about it, so that you can reference "so-and-so musician wins such-and-such award" to a piece of journalism that treats it as news, is generally valid, while an award that doesn't get GNG-worthy coverage, so that you have to reference "so-and-so musician wins such-and-such award" to the award's own self-published content about itself due to the lack of any third-party coverage that treats said award as significant, does not meet the test.
Some caution is of course needed, as there are some instances where an award does have the necessary type of GNG-worthy third party media coverage but an award statement has still been inappropriately cited to the award's self-published content instead of the GNG-worthy third party media coverage anyway — but the key still hinges on whether the award has media coverage or not, so when you find an award like that it counts as notable if the bad primary source can be replaced with a better one, and does not count as notable if it can't. Bearcat (talk) 16:46, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

New criterion or modification to #6?[edit]

One day, I would like to start systematically creating stub articles on old jazz musicians with print sourcing, and a useful heuristic for meeting GNG would be something along the lines of Has lead multiple otherwise notable musicians in a professional, touring ensemble. "Professional" gets rid of uncovered high school band directors and the like, and "touring" eliminates house bands. Thoughts? Mach61 (talk) 04:02, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly, the number-one thing I think is missing from this notability list (and other notability lists) is, "has an article in a major encyclopedia or biographical dictionary". I see no earthly reason why we should choose not to have an article on a topic that another third-party reference work has declared noteworthy, and yet I have at times had squabbles at AfD with people who've argued that an encyclopedia is only one source and so is insufficient to meet the GNG. I imagine that much of the work you'd be doing (much like I did in the past) would be comprehensively combing biographical encyclopedias for missing articles and infilling; including this criterion would do much of the notability work that you're wanting to do here. That said, I'm not necessarily opposed to the original proposal, though I guess I wonder, what sort of examples do we have of musicians who fit that description who don't meet any of the other existing criteria? The one that springs to mind is Mal Hallett, who rarely gets covered in jazz encyclopedias despite having a shockingly impressive band roster. But he already has an article that, so far, hasn't been challenged. Chubbles (talk) 02:22, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
How do we define "professional"? Being a musician is not like a formal profession where you get a degree or an authorization to operate as such. Are AC/DC or the Rolling Stones "professional"? As for "touring", what about bands content to play just within their own city? Cambalachero (talk) 05:08, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Professional" as in full time job, "touring" as in multiple cities (but same state is OK). Mach61 (talk) 05:40, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds a bit arbitrary. Cambalachero (talk) 15:10, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's not arbitrary, it's based on what is most likely to indicate coverage in sources in my experience. Mach61 (talk) 15:14, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
GNG requires multiple sources, not just one. An article in a major encyclopedia or biographical dictionary would certainly count as a data point toward the meeting of NMUSIC #1 — but it wouldn't be enough all by itself if it was somehow the only source the musician had. I can't imagine a case where a musician could possibly even have an article in a major encyclopedia or biographical dictionary at all without also having other coverage elsewhere — if they had actually attained enough notability to get into an encyclopedia at all, then it's utterly unfathomable that they could somehow not have any other coverage anywhere else — so it really isn't needed as its own standalone criterion independently of being assessed within #1.
That said, another thing we would need to watch out for is unreliable sources that call themselves "encyclopedias" or "biographical dictionaries" — this, for example, is not really a genuine or WP:GNG-worthy "encyclopedia", but merely a blog that uses the word "encyclopedia" in its name — so we would still need to assess whether any supposed "encyclopedia" or "biographical dictionary" was really a reliable source or not. Bearcat (talk) 16:51, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For the record[edit]

WP:BAND has, as a sub-bullet of criteria one, a clarification that works consisting merely of trivial coverage, such as articles that simply report performance dates, articles giving release information or track listings, or publications of contact and booking details in directories do not establish notability. I BOLDLY removed that subbullet, noting that the sentence was entirely redundant with the initial bullet, which already disallowed non-trivial published works, but was reverted for lack of discussion. So here's the discussion, I guess. Mach61 (talk) 02:58, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Grammy?[edit]

Basically having a Grammy or have been nominated meets the guidelines? For example, If we have groups such as the Marvelettes, Honey Cone, and Martha and the Vandellas that are on this encyclopedia that have not won or have been nominated Grammies does this matter such? They had a gold record in the US, but Grammies? TheGreatestLuvofAll (talk) 15:27, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A Grammy award would certainly count as a notability claim, but it isn't a necessary condition in and of itself. A musician who has won or been nominated for a Grammy would likely be notable on that basis, but a musician who has never won or been nominated for a Grammy still has numerous other notability criteria they can meet besides that. So no, a Grammy is not essential to musical notability, because people without Grammies can still be notable for other reasons despite not having a Grammy on their shelf. Bearcat (talk) 17:04, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was just pointing that out when I read a sentence that said

Has won or been nominated for a major music award, such as a Grammy, Juno, Mercury, Choice or Grammis award. Note that this requires the person or band to have been the direct recipient of a nomination in their own name, and is not passed by playing as a session musician on an album whose award citation was not specifically for that person's own contributions.

TheGreatestLuvofAll (talk) 17:50, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]