Talk:West Ukrainian People's Republic

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[Untitled][edit]

I think just "Western Ukraine" is more common in English, although that's likely only because of stamp collectors. But not a biggie. Stan 03:24, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I thought of that name too, but the term Western Ukraine is quite ambiguous. Currently it is primarily used to denote the western areas of modern Ukraine (see for instance the recent news coverage on the elections and Yanukovych/Yushchenko rivalry), while this article is about the state. Halibutt 07:30, Jan 17, 2005 (UTC)
Oh, good point! Stan 14:33, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Article title[edit]

I suggest that this subject should be renamed the "Western Ukrainian People's Republic" as this corresponds to the meaning of the Ukrainian original more exactly (populist overtones). In the article the Kiev republic is referred to as the "Ukrainian People's Republic". In the original Ukrainian, the same word "narodnia" or "narodna" is used in both. Regards, Mike Stoyik 03:27, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Both Subtelny and Magocsi call it "West Ukrainian National Republic" in their histories. —Michael Z. 2006-01-14 05:52 Z
  • it should be Western Ukrainian People's Republic or West Ukrainian People's Republic not National,

there is big difference between : People's Republic of China and Republic of China right ? Just like in this case. Besides in ukrainian national is (en. tr.) natsyonalnaya not narodna. P373r 07:38, 15 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think narid can be translated as either 'a nation' or 'a people', which are pretty close synonyms in English. In this sense, I don't know if one is better than another. But both of my general Ukrainian history books (Subtelny and Magocsi, cited above) use "West Ukrainian National Republic", and Ukraine: a Concise Encyclopædia uses "Western Ukrainian National Republic". —Michael Z. 2006-03-15 17:20 Z

While I think that "People's" is a more exact translation, Subtelny, Margocsi, Wilson and Reid are the four most common books on the subject and if they all or most use National, we should use it too as this would establish what's the "most common". I will check Wilson within a couple of days. I have it somewhere. --Irpen 20:40, 15 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wilson calls it the West Ukrainian People's Republic, as does Alexander Motyl in The Turn to the Right. Salo - sila 20:18, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Objections to move it to West Ukrainian People's Republic?

Three established authorities: Subtelny, Magocsi, and Kubyjovyc's Encyclopædia use "National". While I haven't read Wilson or Motyl, they appear to be rigorous academic writers too, and they use "People's". (Reid's book is more popular, and she refers largely to the first two.) Some editors prefer "People's", while I have always been familiar with "National". There doesn't seem to be any justification for a move, and based on the authorities listed here, it's wrong to state that the current title is a mistranslation. —Michael Z. 2006-09-21 14:45 Z

Map[edit]

I wonder if anyone could provide a map of the West Ukrainian People's Republic over modern Europe so as to refer to what it could had been in modern world geopolitics. Verblyud

Transcarpathia[edit]

Transcarpathia was never part of The West Ukrainian National Republic. It was claimed by it, but never administred by it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.227.140.93 (talk) 16:58, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Source doesn't support claim attributed[edit]

The Ukrainian nationalism that developed before the first world war in Austria, while in conflict with the Poles, was generally neither xenophobic nor antisemitic This based on interview Bandera - romantyczny terrorysta "Bandera - Romantic Terrorist, interview with Jaroslaw Hrycak. Gazeta Wyborcza, May 10, 2008.

No such sentence in the review-as a Polish speaker I can't find one. In fact there is quite opposite sentence-that they weren't "very" xenophobic, but that they were anti-Polish. The Ukrainian interviewed defends it as "understandable" but since it is a personal interview I don't think we can take this as fact in a wiki(at least without attribution). Anyway-there is nothing in the source claiming they weren't xenophobic. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 19:40, 23 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Ukrainian translation of the article said "wasn't too..." or "not very." "Перед Першою світовою війною український націоналізм під австрійським пануванням не був ані надто ксенофобським, ані агресивним. Він був антипольським, що було зрозумілим, проте не антисемітським." "Before the first world war Ukrainian nationalism under Austrian rule was neither very xenophobic nor aggressive. It was anti-Polish, which was understandable, but not antisemtic." The statement "generally neither xenophobic nor antisemtic" accurately described "not very xenophobic" and "not antisemitic." I do not want to plagiarize the newspaper article by copying it word-for-word. BTW, the person interviewed is not just "a Ukrainian interviewed" but a history professor at the European University in Budapest, and the Ukrainian Catholic University in Lviv whose book earned the book f the year prize in Ukraine in 2006. Funny how you object when editors' nationality is mentioned but are so quick to seemingly just label a guy "the Ukrainian interviewed."Faustian (talk) 16:02, 24 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, for someone caught blatently misrepresenting a source: [1] you would seem to be the last person to nitpick the phrase above. It doesn't seem you have learned much from all of your blocks and bans.Faustian (talk) 16:09, 24 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I changed the sentence to fit what actually is said and attributed the claims. "Not very xenopohic" is not "in general not xenophobic".That was clearly not what the person said in the personal interview.

--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 18:13, 24 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Name Change[edit]

"Narodna" translates as People's, not "National." "Natsionalna" would have been "National."Faustian (talk) 12:22, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. The correct translation is "People's" not "National". --Taivo (talk) 02:14, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

File:Ukrainian National Republic map 1917 1920.jpg Nominated for Deletion[edit]

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It would be helpful to translate Polish version of the article[edit]

It gives a wealth of information about treatment of Polish population in the republic, something that is missing here.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 13:17, 22 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Information from non English language sources that is unavailable online[edit]

These additions: [2] involve info taken from Polish wiki, based on sources that are not in English and are unavailable online nor easily obtainable outside Poland. Could someone verify them? Authors seem to be legitimate, but it would be good to make sure the statements reflect the source. Will wait before removing. Source is Wojna polsko-ukraińska 1918-1919: działania bojowe, aspekty polityczne, kalendarium Grzegorz Łukomski, Czesław Partacz, Bogusław Polak Wydawnictwo Wyższej Szkoły Inżynierskiej w Koszalinie ; Warszawa, 1994 page 95.Faustian (talk) 23:28, 10 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Another source: Spór o Galicję Wschodnią 1914-1923 Ludwik Mroczka. Wydawnictwo Naukowe WSP, January, 1998 page 106-108. Unavailable online, Polish-language only, published by a local teacher's college in Poland. Info claimed to come from this his source contradicts info from reliable sources. (i.e., Subtelny's Ukraine: a History published by University of Toronto - "probably the most impressive organizational achievement of the West Ukrainian government was the Ukrainian Galician Army..a general mobilization yielded optimal results and by spring the army had over 100,000 men of whom 40,000 were battle read." Probably should be removed.Faustian (talk) 04:06, 14 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Any verification of this stuff in English? If none, after a period of time it ought to be removed. If verified, info about internment belongs here but statements about soldier crimes belong in the article about the Polish-Ukrainian war or Ukrainian Galician Army, as the activities of soldiers, unless described as such, are not government policy.Faustian (talk) 21:39, 14 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Ludwik Mroczka is a reliable source, as a professor of history that headed the history department at Pedagogical University of Kraków(which is the "teacher collage"), he is cited by Snyder, Prusin, Piotrowski and Christophe Mick(that you use btw) in their works.The book is available online(although I am surprised you asked about this, most books are as always-available at library)[3].As you are perfectly aware non-English sources are allowed. If you have doubts about some information-ask for translation, and I will gladly provide one.

Also Mroczka doesn't dispute that Ukrainian national movement was very strong and well organized-he confirms this. However he states that there was little motivation among Ukrainian soldiers and local population, especially in Lviv.He uses Ukrainian nationalist writings among other sources to describe this.Other sources like Lukomski and Partacz also mention that the morale of Ukrainian troops wasn't very high-they had very disciplined officers but the average soldier wasn't interested in the conflict.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 21:48, 14 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for verifying reliability of this source. Info should stay on wikipedia. However, actions of soldiers should be moved to section in Polish-Ukrainian war and/or Ukrainian Galician Army unless they are described as government policy. Internment, censorship belong in this article, as those are obviously government policies.Faustian (talk) 00:26, 15 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Any verification for Czesław Partacz – Wojna polsko-ukraińska o Lwów i Galicję Wschodnią 1918-1919 Przemyskie Zapiski Historyczne – Studia i materiały poświęcone historii Polski Południowo-Wschodniej. 2006-09 R. XVI-XVII ? His Polish wiki states he is a member of the Defense Committee of the Good Name of Poland and Poles. Is he a nationalist historian, like the pro-UPA historian in Ukraine Volodymyr Viatrovych?Faustian (talk) 00:31, 15 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Information about soldier atrocities[edit]

I moved information specifically about soldiers'actions to the article about the Polish-Ukrainian War. Information involving direct government policy was retained here. However, it would be necessary to verify some sources (see above); I will not remove for several days or weeks pending verification.Faustian (talk) 03:45, 15 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Misuse of Christoph Mick[edit]

Source: Christoph Mick. (2015). Lemberg, Lwow, Lviv, 1914–1947: Violence and Ethnicity in a Contested City. West Lafayette, Indiana: Purdue University Press, pg. 180.

This edit: [4]. Statement originally read "According to Christopher Mick the Ukrainian government in general treated the Polish population under its control no worse than the Polish government treated the Ukrainians under its control". This was added added was "at the same time writing that Ukrainian authorities didn't treat Polish population "gently" and speaking in Polish was unwelcomed [1]." Mick wrote"Mirorring Polish reaction to the use of Ukrainian in Lviv, speaking Polish in Ukrainian-held territories was unwelcome and considered suspicious." The edit, which purposefully left out the part about mirroring Polish actions, was misleading by suggesting a contradiction between the original info and the statement it followed.Faustian (talk) 00:00, 23 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Christoph Mick. (2015). Lemberg, Lwow, Lviv, 1914–1947: Violence and Ethnicity in a Contested City. West Lafayette, Indiana: Purdue University Press, pg. 180

Abbreviation[edit]

Most reliable sources in the field use the abbreviation ZUNR over WUNR or WUPR for the last 46 years,[5] a clear majority for the last 33.[6] The commonly-used abbreviation should appear in the lead, and not be relegated to a footnote. The simplest solution is to put the foreign names in the lead.  —Michael Z. 15:51, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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