Talk:The Creation (Haydn)

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Page Title[edit]

Oh FFS please move this and put "the creation" here, and I don't mean "the creation according to the old testament of the book we call in english the bible (which is simply an old work for "the book".

All societies have "creation" stories, and that collection is what belongs here, not some trite mid-18th century opera. Sorry, I can't move the page myself not having special priviledges which come with age. -- Coasterror (talk) 16:47, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Trite mid-18th century opera? Its a grand turn of the 19th century oratorio! :-) Those creation stories are at Creation and not The Creation. I agree its very odd to use an article to disambiguation like that. I wouldn't mind moving the page to The Creation (Haydn). Does anyone else have an opinion? DavidRF (talk) 18:31, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes! My opinion is that (1) User:Coasterror needs to work on his Wikicourtesy; (2) This page should be moved to The Creation (Haydn) as David suggests. Opus33 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 18:50, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done. I switched all the incoming links to the oratorio, leaving the rest for creation-myth and rock-band editors to deal with. Opus33 (talk) 16:27, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The overture as sonata form[edit]

Who can help add a section on this? It's a controversial interpretation that I think deserves mention. I'll do what I can with it when I can get to my notes on itwe did a structural analysis in a class of mine in college.The Realms of Gold (talk) 08:53, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Low D on "wurm" in animal-recitative[edit]

Currently, the article says that "basses who have strong low D" are often tempted to sing "wurm" an octave lower than written. In my experience, the basses who do this are the ones with WEAK low D! The ones who think they have to prove something. Gottlob Frick, for example, was always dry and pressed when he sang below low-G, and he tried to drop the D consistently. (He also dropped the Commendatore's last note in DON GIOVANNI, "A tempo piu non v'e!", singing "v'e" an octave lower. It must have sounded very big and full, TO HIM.) In contrast, Josef Greindl and Kurt Moll, two of the most comfortable Osmins on record, capable of big sound and full relaxed vibrato on their low Ds, sang as written. Those are just the most obvious examples. Because there's no source for this other than a personal survey, I'm not putting anything about it in the article, but if any basses are reading, PLEASE sing Haydn's D. If the low D doesn't embarrass you, it'll make you look arrogant and insecure.

Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau got an honorary PhD from my alma mater, and his acceptance speech was one sentence: "Remember, the composer is always right!" SingingZombie (talk) 03:36, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You're quite right to keep to the talk page. Thomas Quasthoff tells a funny story in his memoir about being asked for the low note by Simon Rattle: in rehearsals he kept forgetting and singing as written, but finally sang the low D in the concert. Rattle grinned and whispered "asshole". Sparafucil (talk) 09:24, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Six years later: I have responded by removing any implication that the low D has to be "strong" for a bass singer to be tempted to use it. Thanks for pointing this out. Opus33 (talk) 02:54, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Actually Kurt Moll did sing both low D's in the 1986 Bernstein recording (both the one in Rollend in schäumended Wellen and the one in Gleich öffnet sich der Erde Schoß). Double sharp (talk) 06:33, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

English text[edit]

The libretto section currently ends with "for the full versions of both texts see the links at the end of this article." However I cannot find a link to the English text there. KHarbaugh (talk) 00:27, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Request for clarification[edit]

I've been looking for a good reference on this but haven't found one (my library on Haydn is not large sadly and I wouldn't know where to start searching). What translation of the bible were Haydn and Swieten using? It's clearly some Catholic knock-off of Luther's but I can't seem to find details of this online. Blythwood (talk) 00:33, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

An interesting problem; thanks for pointing it out. I found the answer in Nicholas Temperley's book and put it in. Opus33 (talk)

Thank you! I assumed as it seemed similar to Luther's but not quite the same it was some modification to fit Catholic sensibilities of the time - but that's a really interesting answer. I've always found it fascinating to listen to and compare the German and English versions, and it's a really useful fact to have on here. Blythwood (talk) 20:17, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Thanks again. Opus33 (talk) 20:49, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Improve[edit]

Classical music discussion fostered the idea to improve this vital article. I will improve myself what I imported, the tables on the movements. Other questions as they arise:

Citations[edit]

Inline citations are requested. Should we switch to harv citations, - to me the most elegant way to reference different page numbers in the same book?
If not, can we at least have citations in a separate section.

Images[edit]

Please no text squeezed between images.
Image size: normally default. If a larger size is wanted, it should be specified as an upright multiple, not fixed, for different user settings.

Organization[edit]

Move para "Instrumentation" to Music, call it "Scoring"?

Discography[edit]

I volunteer to organize the discography as a sortable table. If the tables seem too much for the article, I think discography might be the first to go separately.

I made it a table. Some questions:

Some choirs and orchestras are missing.
Some details about a concert performance might be better in prose, same for the Wunderlich last.
Soloists: some have 3 - all clear. Some have 5 - I assume often three archangels, Adam and Eve. Some have 4: probably the alto listed who sings only in the finale. Some stay unexplained. Could someone who knows the recordings help? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:43, 6 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Happy editing, until we can say "Vollendet ist das große Werk". This should be a GA, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:24, 6 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fine with all of this but suggest that Discography become a satellite article. Thanks, Opus33 (talk) 20:15, 6 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Could you - before splitting - first flesh out the disco a bit by a few words about history - first period instruments - the last Wunderlich recording - to make it a stand-alone article worth reading? I will slowly deal with the above if nobody else does, want to write a GA first. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:51, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Lead image[edit]

I noticed that the beautiful current lead image unfortunately doesn't actually portray God. The figure depicted is Urizen. Some other image from historical art of God creating the universe might be more appropriate. Opus33 (talk) 00:25, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It was replaced in 2022 by a 14th-century depiction of the Genesis narration which seems also little related to Haydn's time and inspiration, so I restored it for now. The best image would be an autograph page but that is lost. Next best a page from an early publication. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:56, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

About the instruments[edit]

Information about orchestra is not fully right. 1) There are 3 flutes in "The creation", not 2; 2) Clarinets are in B-flat and C, horns are in E-flat, A, D, B-flat, C, F, E; 3) Trumpets are forgotten :) There are 2 trumpets in C, D, B-flat. Mivaleria (talk) 11:16, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]