Talk:Yamanote Line

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Pre-war boundaries[edit]

A few comments on this article:

  • It's my understanding that the Yamanote line describes the boundaries of pre-war Tokyo. Can anyone confirm this or disprove it?
See Tokyo City for some historical information. You'll find several pre-war wards that were outside the Yamanote

Line. Of course, there were earlier wars ... . Fg2 10:57, Aug 16, 2004 (UTC)

The line itself was never an official boundary, although the existence of the Yamanote line proper (the western section) contributed to Tokyo's pre WWII expansion westwards. --Ianb 14:06, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • The article says that in the past, Yamanote was sometimes read as Yamate. It still is, as Yamate-dori and this article attest. A lot of place names in Japan have ambiguous readings, and the old JNR imposed its own decision in some cases.
No surprise. Yamanote (or Yamate) has no official existence; no government has that name. With its millions of residents, there are bound to be variations in pronunciation. But a railroad finds it convenient to give just one name to the line. Kinda makes you wonder, though: how much should we worry about macrons, when entire letters are debatable? Fg2 10:57, Aug 16, 2004 (UTC)
I've clarified the paragraph a little. --Ianb 14:06, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Have added a little bit more on the history, partially translated from the Japanese Wikipedia and from my own knowledge Tangotango 02:45, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
"A lot of place names in Japan have ambiguous readings . . ." Well, in one sense, most of them do - and that is also true of personal names. Consider the family name 中谷 - some people use the pronunciation "Nakatani," and others use "Nakaya." Or, consider the name of the country: 日本. There is no "official" pronunciation. A member of the Diet made a formal request not too long ago to the Education Ministry to clarify, "once and for all," whether 日本 should be pronounced "Nippon" or "Nihon" (The requested clarification was not provided.) JNR once used ticket stock watermarked (in kana) "nihon kokuyū tetsudō." And so forth. All these are probably best described as curiosities, and there is little need to belabor the issue. There are reference materials for geographic names - and railway station names - that give standardized (or "official") pronunciations. All one has to do is find the appropriate reference, and use it.
BTW, in Kobe, 山手 is "Yamate." At least that is the reading used for 西神・山手線, Seishin-Yamate Line. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:A1F0:BD0:1453:84F3:4170:C82B (talk) 09:48, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Reconstruction[edit]

There was an Asahi Shinbum web article on Sunday, Jan. 23, 2005 describing the reconstruction of the Yamanote Line. In that article there are comments about hte historical development of the Yamanote Sen. I suggest enhancing the history section of this entry with that informaiton. ( http://www.asahi.com/national/update/0123/018.html )

Commuter/regional railway or rapid transit?[edit]

With its frequency, schedule, train cars, distance of stations, etc., is the Yamanote Line effectively operating like an overground metro line, like the RER of Paris to a certain extent? — Instantnood 17:23, 28 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, definitely. The Yamanote line is not what you'd call commuter rail, in that it does not tie outlying areas to the city. It's strictly intra-city. adamrice 18:15, 28 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Is its tracks shared with other lines? — Instantnood 19:33, 28 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No, its tracks aren't shared with any other lines. The only exception is when either the Yamanote line or Keihin-Tohoku line is undergoining extensive maintenance, when both trains on both lines use the other's lines. (the line that isn't being worked on) -- and that's for the Tabata-Shinagawa portion only. You might be thinking of the Yamanote Kamotsu line (the Yamanote freight line), which is the (official?) name of the portion of line from (I believe) Ikebukuro to Osaki. i.e., the line that's now used by the Saikyo line and Shonan-Shinjuku lines. Tangotango 13:15, 1 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Also, between Tabata and Tamachi, the Yamanote and Keihin-Tohoku lines share platforms for the trains running in the same direction. So instead of one platform being for the inner and outer (clockwise and counterclockwise, but maybe not in that order) loops of the Yamanote, and another platform being for the North-bound and South-bound Keihin-Tohoku line, the North/CCW and South/CW lines share platforms. During the day, the Keihin-Tohoku trains don't stop at every station along this segment. Neier 13:00, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
So is it a regional/commuter railway line providing metro-like service? — Instantnood 16:28, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It certainly doesn't match the definition on the commuter rail page; it's more of a Rapid transit line, or metro, or what the Germans call S-Bahn. To clarify the tracks question, the Yamanote Line train service has its own dedicated pair of tracks running in a loop through the center of Tokyo. Ianb 23:00, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The Yamanote Line is about as perfect a match as possible to the descriptions at Rapid transit:
  1. a railway system
  2. in an urban area
  3. with high capacity and frequency
  4. with large trains
  5. total or near total grade separation from other traffic
  6. electric
  7. totally independent from other traffic
Fg2 00:05, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The nature of the places it serves has changed tremendously since the line opened. Initially, it served the highly urbanized center of the city, carrying passengers to less-urbanized places like Shibuya and Ikebukuro. In recent decades, the former farms and fields in those places have been developed as major satellite city centers and so one might characterize the role of the Yamanote Line now as "strictly intra-city." Fg2 21:49, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. So is it correct to say: " Although i) opened as a commuter/regional railway, ii) operated by the same organisation that operates long distance railway lines, iii) having a fare system that is integrated with that of the other lines of the organisation, iv) the places it serves were previously less-urbanised, and v) not integrated with the metro/rapid transit network,   the Yamanote Line is now providing metro/rapid transit-like service along the same original route. "? — Instantnood 20:49, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think "yes" might be the correct answer to that. Now let's hop over to the Odakyu Line and start a debate about the definition of the line between Yoyogi Uehara and Noborito, whereby the opinions anyone who has not stood at the eastern end of Shimokitazawa Station and watched 10-car trains bear down on people dashing across level crossings on what is basically a glorified tramline will be discounted ;-). Ianb 21:02, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

One more point about the Yamanote Line: the cars are designed for standing, not sitting. I think that helps decide in favor of describing it as a rapid-transit line. Fg2 22:04, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is just for an error in this article In City Hunter goodbye my glass heart it is not the opening of the yamate line but the opening of the new automatic train on the yamate line 82.120.61.44 00:49, 2 November 2006 (UTC)minato ku82.120.61.44 00:49, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There has been a consensus on the list of metro system page as well that this line is rapid transit and should be included. As well as the consensus here that it is NOT commuter rail, please all editors stop editing the article and saying it is commuter rail. The Yamanote line is essentially entirely grade separated, has very high frequency, and is 100% urban. Not a single station is suburban. SkyTree90 (talk) 21:48, 27 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I would also like to point out that an administrator has been involved and has also requested users to use the talk page. So before reverting edits, let's please discuss here. SkyTree90 (talk) 15:40, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Route Map[edit]

I feel that using the image for the map of the line is unprofessional so I am working on a translation of the track map from the Japanese Wikipedia. Help is appreciated. --ÆAUSSIEevilÆ 18:11, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The present map is well organized to represent the loop. I don't believe it can be replaced by any easy translation of the complicated Japanese diagram. If your work is done, please do not replace the present one, but consider adding yours to any other portion of the page. --Sushiya (talk) 14:29, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I feel that the current schematic route map is clear and to the point, whereas, to be honest, the complex route map used on the Japanese Wikipedia article is overly complex and not particularly easy to understand. Even as someone who is very familiar with the Yamanote Line route, I find it extremely hard to follow on that route diagram. Unless the Yamanote Line tracks can be highlighted in a different colour (light green of course) I would say don't bother. --DAJF (talk) 23:41, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The Japanese map is very complicated. To figure out which line is Yamanote, you have to search up and down to find a place where there's only one line. There's only one place where it shows just a single line. Once you've found that place, you follow that line up or down, to figure out which one is the Yamanote, as it zigzags with the other lines.
It would be visually clearer if all other lines were light gray, or thin lines, or in some similar method indicated that they're not the subject of the map. Light green for Yamanote is desirable, as long as all other lines are immediately different even to a person who doesn't perceive color, and to all viewers Yamanote is most clearly visible. Unless this can be done, this map is TMI (Too Much Information). Fg2 (talk) 01:17, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't exactly want to totally discourage the use of the route map codes, but perhaps simplify it. How about remove all the other lines (e.g. Keihin-Tohoku, Chuo, etc) and work with just the Yamanote Line itself and then apply side notes to each station to indicate interchanges. Would definitely be much better than what the over complicated one on the JA wiki. 리지강.wa.au talk 16:28, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Some doubtful facts/reasonings[edit]

I came across a section of text saying "In the mornings, certain counter-clockwise trains start from Tamachi (which is more efficient, being located close to the Yamanote Line depot near Ōimachi)". Of course it maybe true that some trains start service at Tamachi - but stating that this would be more efficient because of its location close to the depot... that's just plain wrong IMO. The tracks from the Oimachi depot lead pretty much straight to Osaki station - and are even heading the "wrong" way at that. The only way to get from that depot to Tamachi, is by going to Osaki station first, then reverse direction, go over 4km and through Shinagawa station... hardly "more efficient" than simply starting at Osaki itself. (If in doubt: just fire Google Earth up and look thoroughly - you can see the depot, the tracks, the stations and all very clearly there, even when you have never been to Tokyo.) So there's probably other reasons to do that - but not being close to the depot. Or has the author of that part confused the Yamanote Oimachi depot with that other depot on Tokaido (main) line between Shinagawa and Tamachi? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.141.33.52 (talk) 23:17, 23 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You're right. Trains starting from Tamachi come from a garage at Shinagawa -- located in between Keikyu and Yamanote tracks. --Sushiya (talk) 01:03, 24 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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Station numbers on JR East lines[edit]

So there is a problem that has happened with inserting the station numbers on all JR East Lines, including the Yamanote Line. Should there be a solution to this with colored numbers instead? J4lambert (talk) 16:36, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ridership numbers, where did they come from?[edit]

Where is this +3 million/day ridership coming from? The 3,725,247[1] figure the number is nowhere to be found inside the source provided. The other citation for the 3.68 million figure leads to a magazine that I have no idea if it actually said it or not or how it got the number. On the Japanese wiki they provided a ridership of only 1,097,093[2] on the section running from Shinagawa to Shinjuku to Tabata which is about 60% of the whole line. Something tells me that ridership from the parallel Keihin-Tōhoku, Shōnan-Shinjuku, Saikyo, Tohoku and Tokaido services are being included or indiscriminate sums of passenger exits, entrances and/or transfers of stations on the Yamanote line are being used which is problematic. Any thoughts and clarification on how to remedy this? Though I feel the way the Japanese handled it is the best course of action, it's clunky and not perfect but it uses primary sources and the methodology of where that statistic came from is clear.--Terramorphous (talk) 03:36, 2 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ http://www.train-media.net/report/1110/jr.pdf
  2. ^ http://www.jreast.co.jp/rosen_avr/pdf/2011-2015.pdf

From the article:

"The ridership of the Yamanote Line cited in a 2015 MLIT National Transit report was 4,098,582 trips per day,[8] but it is unclear what constitutes as the Yamanote Line and what, if any, ridership of parallel JR East railway services were included. A 2015 JR East ridership report using JR East's internal definition of the Yamanote Line[b] reports a ridership of 1,097,093.[2]"

This sentence confuses two different measures.

Rounding to the nearest million, the 4.1 million figure is the average number people who enter platforms at stations along the line. That is your "ridership" - average number of passengers per day.

The 1.1 million figure is a measure of travel, or "transportation density." A "transportation density" of 1.1 million / day means that, on average, 1.1 million people travel over each km of line. Yanks and Brits don't get this, but: you cannot transform "transportation density" into "ridership" (originating passengers) unless you know the average trip length. (You can try guessing; good luck with that.)

The sentence also confuses "infrastructure" with "services." A preceding sentence reads, "Internally JR East refers to the "Yamanote Line" as the 20.6 km corridor between Shinagawa and Tabata via Shinjuku used by Yamanote local trains." That's misleading. This reference was not instigated by JR-East and is not used exclusively by that company - consider source documents dating back 100 years (or longer). Nor is it confined to this one line - consider other lines with parallel services.

As for the issues of parallel services:

A.) The MLIT document cited in footnote 8 (平成27年 大都市交通センサス 首都圈報告書) does indeed specify what segment of infrastructure is referenced by "Yamanote Line:" Shinagawa - Shinkuku - Tamachi (page 17).

So both figures above - 4.1 million station entries per day, and 1.1 million pass-km per km of line per day - pertain to this segment.

B.) With reference to the same document and page: I have not gone through the list of endpoint stations in detail, but, under the table heading "Lines" (路線), I do not see either "Yamanote Freight Line" or "Saikyō Line."

C.) Other than peak-hour passenger volume statistics, it is unlikely that you will find "ridership" statistics for the "Yamanote Line" services ("Inner Circle" and "Outer Circle"). This is not surprising. I don't see how you could meaningfully separate traffic between, say, Ueno and Hamamatsu-chō by service. Yamanote and Keihin-Tōhoku trains stop on opposite sides of the same platform, and passengers board the first train that comes along (. . . unless its too crowded). Moreover, it is a well-known fact that passengers do not always travel on the most direct route. Ueno to Shinjuku is a good example: by JR-East, the most direct route involves a change to Chūō Line trains at Akihabara or Kanda. However, some passengers choose to ride the Yamanote Line via Ikebukuro. It takes longer, but trains are less crowded and you don't have to transfer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:A1F0:BD0:C90C:F35F:B29C:8235 (talk) 21:42, 13 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

How is the 1.1 million figure "pass-km per km of line"? The table in the JR East source title says "平均通過人員" which is average volume of passengers passing through. The units are 人／日 which is people per day. So 1.1 million is volume of passengers passing through the Yamanote Line between Shinagawa and Tabata via Shinjuku each day. So really it's:
4.1 million figure is the average number people who enter platforms at stations along that section of the Yamanote Line and 1.1 million passengers using that section of line per day. Terramorphous (talk) 02:07, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"How is the 1.1 million figure "pass-km per km of line?"
Because that is how it is defined. The derivation of the statistic 平均通過人員 is explained as: passenger-km per day (annual average, for the entire line), divided by the line length.
I have a spreadsheet page where the compiler explains how one determines total pass-km for a line: in brief, you count the number of people who travel between each adjacent pair of stations, multiply by the distance between that given pair of stations, then sum up the results.
Much more convenient: See the explanation on the JR-East website: https://www.jreast.co.jp/rosen_avr/
The unit "人／日" is correct from a technical standpoint, but does not facilitate understanding. Units calculation: 人*km／日／km = 人*km * 1／日 * 1/km. The "km"s cancel out, thus, 人／日.
Note that (1.1 million pass-km / km of line) * 20.6 km = about 23 million pass-km total (daily average). Divide this by 4.1 million passenger boardings and get an "average travel distance" of about 5.5 km. Which sounds about right for the Yamanote Line proper. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:A1F0:BD0:1453:84F3:4170:C82B (talk) 04:05, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
OK thanks for the clarification. Another question, 4.1 million station entries per day is derived from summing all station ridership of stations along Yamanote Line or sums up all traffic of only the Yamanote Line/Yamanote Freight Line platforms? For example if a passenger enters Shinjuku but takes the Chuo Line to Yotsuya does it get counted? Terramorphous (talk) 02:10, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Would a passenger entering at Shinjuku who enters at Shinjuku and travels to Yotsuya be included in the Yamanote Line station-entry total?
The implied answer is "No." Passengers traveling between Shinjuku and Yotsuya would be allocated only to the Chuo Line. Note that JR-East traffic-density stats describe the "Chuo Main Line" as extending from Kanda (westward) to Takao, without a break between Yoyogi and Shinjuku.
This raises the intriguing question of how a trip between Tokyo Station and, say, Mitaka gets allocated. JR-East statistics imply that 1 passenger would be allocated to the Yamanote Line, and 1 passenger to the Chuo Line. However, the MLIT metropolitan-area statistics define the "Chuo Main Line" as extending between Tokyo and Sasago stations (Sasago is east of Otsuki). This implies that 1 passenger would be allocated to to the Chuo Line and none to the Yamanote Line.
I cannot pretend to know the details of how JR-East manages to compile such data. I believe that there "must" be an underlying tolerance, but I have not seen (or heard) anything to suggest what this tolerance might be.
(If you check the documentation for the American "National Transit Database," you will see a "global" specification of "plus or minus 10 percent, at the 95-percent confidence level." Not everyone accepts this as "correct.")
In sum: "transportation density" tells you how many people, on average, travel over each segment of line, where "segment" refers to the line between pairs of adjacent stations. This is easily reduced to "per km of line length." With reference to a given segment, "if" you know the average number of passengers aboard each passing train throughout the day, you will then know the total pass-km that this segment carried (on that particular day). "If" you know this for all segments of interest, for all days of interest, then you can easily calculate the "transportation density."
"Passengers," as in "passengers per day," is an ambiguous category, because the label does not make clear precisely what is being counted - "originating passengers" or "passengers by line." This is generally not an issue with statistics pertaining to Japan.
The table on page 91 of the MLIT document has the title, "Number of Passengers By Operator" (or "By Company;" 事業者別利用者数). No ambiguity there.
By contrast, the table that begins on Page 92 has the title, "Number of Passengers By Operator [and] Line (事業者別路線別利用者数). No ambiguity there, either.
The numbers in the two tables are not compatible, but that should not be a problem. It stands to reason: if you add up the number of passengers carried by each line (of a system that has more than one line), you will get a number larger than the "Number of Passengers By Operator."
A related example of ambiguity is "passengers per hour." A statistic of "1,000 passengers per hour" is widely understood as precisely that - 1,000 warm bodies riding over the specified segment during a 60-minute interval. There are examples of operators that scale up an observation, from some shorter interval, to an hourly rate - and label this as "passengers per hour." This does not occur in Japan, as evidenced by source documents. These specify precise times (e.g. 0801 - 0900), stations and direction.
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