Talk:Great Mass in C minor, K. 427

Include mention of the completion

Surely, since the work's incompleteness is notable, a mention of the attempts by others to complete it should be included. I don't know how many versions there are, but a new one by a musicologist called Levin has just premiered at the Proms in London (saw it last night). Genedecanter 10:34, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

This is Mass No.18 not 17!!

(Fixed formatting, originally posted by User:Sean McHugh 02)

There seems to be some confusion with the ordinal numbering. List of Masses by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart says 18 and List_of_works_by_Wolfgang_Amadeus_Mozart#Masses says 17. The list that says 18 has a gap between K167 and K194 implying there may have been a work in between that was perhaps removed from the catalogue? I have no idea. Anyhow, the piano sonatas have a similar issue due to confusion about K533/K494. For many genres, its best not to worry too much about ordinal numbers and focus on the K-numbers. DavidRF (talk) 18:26, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Name

Could this entry be renamed Mozart's "Great Mass in C minor without harm? I'm putting a mention of Mozart in the text. Wetman 22:04, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC) Five years later it's finally done! Actually, they went a little farther than you would've liked. Incarnatus (talk) 21:41, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

The lead

The lead in the de-WP does in my opinion more justice to one of the greatest pieces of music at all: "Die Große Messe in c-Moll von Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, KV 427 (früher 417a), entstand 1782 und ist, obwohl unvollendet, eine der herausragenden Messvertonungen der europäischen Musikgeschichte. Die Bezeichnung "Große Messe" ist ein späteres Attribut. Formal gehört das Werk zum Typus der Missa solemnis." translated: "The Great Mass in C Minor (in German: Große Messe in c-Moll) of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, KV 427 (KV 417a before), was composed in 1782 and is, although not completed, one of the supreme musical setting of the Mass in European classical music. The name Große Messe was added later. Formally it is a Missa solemnis." I would like to discuss this before changing the article. Concerns of the lead as at present: the number (17 or 18) that I consider irrelevant, the statement "best-known" (I know people who know many masses of Mozart but not this one thinking they are more or less all equal), and the statement "most widely performed" (that may be true for recordings), in church use the others - like the Coronation Mass - are more frequently performed, to my observation. Actually, I cannot see the C Minor performed in the liturgy - comparable to Bach's Mass in B Minor. I would like to see in the lead also the facts that Mozart composed (this) his latest mass not for a church commission but "on his own" and that it is scored for double chorus. Please discuss and help with the wording. We might also need an article on Missa solemnis, rather than saying it's the opposite of a Missa brevis. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:41, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

I started changing (keeping the former lead hidden) but don't feel secure of the language to describe the importance of the work. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:45, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Name...

While a few people are looking here, I have to wonder about the name. Should it really be called this? I mean, apparently the name simply refers to the fact it's not a missa brevis, so it seems pretty generic, but I dunno. I used to be at Great Mass in C minor (Mozart), but that doesn't seem perfect either. Thoughts? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 13:45, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Actually looking at that article, I was thinking of 'missa longa', which means 'Great' is just a nickname. We don't call Dvorak's 9th Symphony under New World Symphony and we don't call call Beethoven's 6th the Pastoral Symphony, or whatever else. Unfortunetly Mozart's mass numbers are confusing, and he wrote another one in minor...so hmmm. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 13:50, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

It's been called "Große Messe" in German for a long time, not as a nickname, but to refer to its greatness. Mozart doesn't have to be added, there is only one, like only one Mass in B Minor. "Große" could be translated to Large also, but Great is common, compare recordings. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:02, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Mass in B minor is far worse and most certainly SHOULD be changed. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 23:25, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Both seem perfectly acceptable article names to me. They are supported by common usage. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:11, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

I feel the same. Both works were not given a name by their composer, so we can use the common name that is unique. Mozart wrote above his music no more than "No I Andante moderato K(yrie) Di Wolfgango Amadeo Mozart", for example. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:46, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

How the hell is 'Mass in B minor' unique? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 00:14, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Which other masses in B minor have an article on Wikipedia? That article is named this way since October 2006. If you don't agree, you should raise your concerns at that article's talk page. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:54, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

If you're all interested in arguing over small, nitpicky details, what about the fact that there is a link to "symphonic masses" as if clicking that link will tell you what a symphonic mass is? James470 (talk) 02:47, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

As long as people looking it up can find the information regardless of how they look it up, who cares? There are much worse problems with this article than what its filename on the server is. James470 (talk) 01:57, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Mozarts wife singing two parts?

I read at present that Mozart's wife sang "the soprano solos". I bet she didn't do both S I and S II. Can we find out which one, or otherwise just say "a soprano solo"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:06, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

According to the book by Wolfgang Hildesheimer ("Mozart" - ISBN 902951972 - published by Suhrkamp Verlag, Frankfurt am Main, 1977 - page 144 of the Dutch translation) Constanze Mozart sang first soprano at the premiere performance. Regards. Francesco Malipiero (talk) 18:35, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Their strained relationship

"The Mass was written as a result of a vow Mozart made with himself in relation to his wife Constanze and his father Leopold and their strained relationship." - Could someone reword this please, to clarify who had a strained relationship. My English is not up to it. - Thanks for the answer above! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:36, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

I have tried to clarify the above by changing the text completely in accordance with my source (no mention of a strained relationship anywhere though in this context). I also added that only the Kyrie and Gloria were performed at the premiere. Regards. Francesco Malipiero (talk) 17:27, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Thank you! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:37, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

What was performed in the premiere?

Next question: it's somewhere in my memory - unsourced - that no Credo was supposed to be performed the day of the premiere, because it was some Saint's day. That would be a pretty simple explanation why the Credo was left unfinished, - probably too simple. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:50, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I think the explanation for the unfinished state of the work is even more simple: Mozart simply lost interest in composing sacred music. When you check the list of his compositions, you will see that, after this incomplete mass and with a hiatus of approx eight years, he only composed two more sacred works: the Ave verum corpus (Mozart) (a very short work, composed for a friend), and the Requiem (Mozart), which was a commission, both composed in the last months of his life. Best. Francesco Malipiero (talk) 19:21, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

This is an old myth that has been debunked years ago: see the preface to the sixth volume of Masses in the NMA, for instance. Certainly the Kyrie KV 341 dates from the late Vienna years, probably from 1787 to 1791. Double sharp (talk) 05:31, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Yes and no. He had just performed some of the best sacred music writing, the Qui tollis for example. Unlike all his sacred music before, he had written this Mass without a commission, that shows interest to me. (I would go as far as saying he had not much interest in the "sacred" music he had written for Salzburg, with the major objective that it had to be short.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:21, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

If no Credo was performed, why did Constanze sing the "Et incarnatus est" at the première? Classical geographer (talk) 14:43, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

I have checked and 26 October 1783 was a Sunday, so the Creed would have been sung. It was the 20th Sunday after Pentecost that year and, according to the Tridentine Calendar in force at the time, there was also a commemoration of St. Evaristus, Pope and Martyr. The singing of the Creed was required by the rubrics of the Missal, and would likely have been a mixture of Mozart's K427 and the remaining parts Gregorian Chant. Safebreaker (talk) 20:35, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

I recommend reading pages IX–XI ("Zur Entstehung, Aufführung und Bearbeitung") from the foreword of NMA vol. 5, (p. IX, p. X, p. XI). It's complicated, and more importantly, there are no sources that the Mass was performed there and then at all. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 06:50, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Cohrs completion

The Cohrs completion is having its premiere tomorrow, 7 April 2012, in Melbourne, Australia. It's been described as the Mass's"world premiere", but that needs considerable qualification. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 23:03, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I like this one a lot: his suggested equivalences (Crucifixus = Tra l'oscure ombre funeste and Agnus Dei = Maurerische Trauermusik) make a lot of sense historically and musically in context. Double sharp (talk) 14:18, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

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