Talk:Jeanne d'Albret

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Joan III[edit]

Does anybody really call her Joan III? NO. First, in English, Spanish Juanas are almost always Anglicized (except by Genealogists) to Joanna -- hence Juana la Loca is Joanna the Mad. Second, Jeanne d'Albret is what we call this woman -- this is what popular reference works and scholarly texts most often call her. I'm not saying you'll never see Joan III -- but not nearly as often as Jeanne d'Albret. Please see Wikipedia:Naming conventions if you have questions. I'm reverting it. JHK

I definitely agree that this article should be called Jeanne d'Albret. When I first saw it, I actually thought I'd reached the wrong page. Funnyhat 02:32, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It's not any Spanish name: she was born in France and reigned on a portion of Navarre that now belongs to France. Her Basque subjects (citizens?) probably called her Jone. --Sugaar 20:28, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't Jeanne d'Albret more common than Jeanne III of Navarre? Shouldn't we change it? Granted, Jeanne III of Navarre is much better than Joan III... --CTH (talk) 16:26, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Joanna the Mad? I've always heard her called Joan the Mad. But then I'm not an expert historian, just a dabbler -- Zoe

I've never heard Joan, but it's possible -- I went to college in California, so we just tended to call her Juana la Loca, since most of us Californios knew what that meant, and it's kind of fun to say ;-) JHK

Basque[edit]

Did Jeanne rule Navarre in Basque? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahassan05 (talk • contribs) 08:00, 18 October 2007 (UTC) ==This article needs expanding.It's too brief for a woman as powerful and influential as Jeanne.jeanne (talk) 14:32, 13 April 2008 (UTC) ==Expansion of article== I have expanded the article by adding more details of her life history as well as descriptions of her character and appearance.jeanne (talk) 07:44, 22 May 2008 (UTC) ==Jeanne was her name not Joan== In history this French person was always referred to as Jeanne never Joan.08:45, 27 May 2008 (UTC)jeanne (talk)[reply]

Jeanne d'Albret or Joan III of Navarre[edit]

This article should be titled either Jeanne d'Albret or Joan III of Navarre. The former is undisputably the most common name for this woman. The latter would be consistent with Joan I of Navarre and Joan II of Navarre. The current title is a horrible mish-mash, created as a compromise between the naming conventions and the common name. Surtsicna (talk) 19:21, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Date of Birth[edit]

Given that Nancy Lyman Roelker wrote in her biography of Jeanne d'Albret that "at five o'clock in the afternoon of November 16, when the Queen of Navarre gave birth normally to her first child -- and the only one that ever lived -- Jeanne d'Albret..." (Roelker 1968, p. 7) and that Jean-Pierre Babelon in his biography of Henri IV wrote "Jeanne d'Albret, née le 16 novembre 1528 à Saint-Germain-en-Laye..." (Babelon 1982, p. 27), I believe the date of birth should be the 16 November. The 7 January date is that of the announcement: "France learned officially of Jeanne's existence on January 7, 1529, when François I permitted the addition of one new "master" in every city where there were incorporated guilds, "in honor of the birth of Jeanne de Navarre, the King's niece."" (Roelker, p.9).--CTH (talk) 16:45, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK, what you should do to keep the DOB from being constantly reverted is to add this note at the bottom of the article. This is the main problem with the old Julian calendar, 7 January 1528 was actually 17 January 1529! In the 16th century it was 10 days behind and the new year normally began around Easter, hence a lot of confusion over dates. Thank you for your information.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:51, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I added another ref to back up the 16 November 1528 birthdate: Francis Hackett in his bio Francis the First says on page 347 that Jeanne was born on 16 November 1528. This clinches it. Thanks for pointing it out and adding the sources, CTH! We need editors like you around.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:52, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I found other confimation here: "Encyclopedia+of+Women+in+the+Renaissance"+1528+2007+"Jeanne+d%27Albret"Mill 1 (talk) 10:11, 16 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Husband's claim to the throne[edit]

The article states "After the death of Francis in 1547 and the accession of King Henry II to the throne, Jeanne married Antoine de Bourbon, "first prince of the blood", who by his marriage to her became heir to the French throne in the event that the Valois produced no male heirs."

This is incorrect. Antoine de Bourbon could not become heir to the French throne as a result of his marriage to Jeanne, because based on Salic law, women could not inherit the throne nor could they pass it on to their descendants.

Antoine de Bourbon was the male-line heir to the throne because, though it is hard to believe, he was the senior male-line descendant of Saint Louis, King of France! All other male lines had died out, and descent through a female was ineligible.

This is an interesting point, and the quote above is incorrect and should be removed.

The Valois descent was as follows:

Saint Louis (Louis IX) - Philip III - Charles of Valois (brother of Philip IV as his sons had no male-line descendants, though the English kings claimed the French throne by female descent) - Philip VI of France, the first Valois King - John II - Charles V - Charles VI - Charles VII - Louis XI - Charles VIII.

Charles VIII had no surviving children and therefore the French throne was inherited by his cousin Louis Duke of Orleans who became Louis XII. He was the closest male-line heir, being the son of Charles Duke of Orleans, son of Louis Duke of Orleans who was the younger brother of King Charles VI de Valois.

Louis XII had only 2 daughters, and therefore the throne was again inherited by a cousin, King Francis I (who did NOT derive his claim from the fact that he married Louis's daughter Claude).

Francis I's claim was derived from a younger son of Louis Duke of Orleans (Charles VI's brother), John Count of Angouleme. His son was Charles Count of Angouleme, Francis I's father. Louis XII was Francis's father's first cousin.

Francis I had one surviving son Henry II who had many children, but none of his sons had surviving children, and none of his daughters or their descendants could inherit.

Therefore on the death of the last Valois King Henry III, the throne was inherited by Henry of Navarre, who became Henry IV. His descent, as we have mentioned, went back all the way to Saint Louis in the 1200s, since there were no surviving male line descendants of any more recent kings.

Descent was:

Saint Louis (Louis IX) - Robert Count of Clermont - Louis I Duke of Bourbon - James I Count of La Marche - John I Count of la Marche - Louis Count of Vendome - John VIII Count of Vendome - Francis Count of Vendome - Charles Duke of Vendome - Antoine of Navarre who married the subject of this article.

Although this seems incredibly remote, it was well known at the time that Henry of Navarre was the next heir, and as was traditional he married a princess of the old royal house (Marguerite de Valois) even though his claim to the throne did not derive from her. She was put aside when he became King. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Welys (talk • contribs) 12:29, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Dabomb87 (talk) 17:36, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Jeanne III of Navarre → Jeanne d'Albret — The Navarrese monarch is almost always known as "Jeanne d'Albret". Google Books gives 95,000 results for "Jeanne d'Albret", compared with just 22 results for "Jeanne III of Navarre". There are no results for the anglicised "Joan III of Navarre". The Celestial City (talk) 22:25, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose While I agree that she is better known as Jeanne d'Albret ,we need to conform to the styles of her predecessors who have articles: Jeanne I of Navarre and Jeanne II of Navarre. The article looks fine with Jeanne d'Albret in the first line.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:41, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hello Jeanne Boleyn :) Firstly, the other articles you mention are actually located at Joan I of Navarre and Joan II of Navarre; this is the only article titled as "Jeanne [numberal] of Navarre". Secondly, Wikipedia is a tertiary source, so article should be titled based on usage in reliable sources, as stated by Wikipedia policy. If you agree that "she is better known as Jeanne d'Albret", I don't see any reason not to move this article. The Celestial City (talk) 19:31, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment - Firstly, the name Joan or Jeanne is not relevant to the point I was trying to make; namely that Wikipedia's naming conventions for monarchs is name, ordinal and country. Jeanne d'Albret, while technically her correct name (and I 'll freely acknowledge is known to history by that name) does not reveal that she was a Queen regnant of Navarre. In addition to that pertinent ommission, there were other Jeanne d'Albrets throughout history, but only one Jeanne III of Navarre. We can always have Jeanne d'Albret redirect to this article.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:40, 6 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I know, the queen is the only person of that name, and even if she were not would definitely be the primary topic. This article should reflect how reliable sources to her as; see, for example, Maria Theresa as a similar example. The Celestial City (talk) 18:00, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Off-hand I can name another two Jeanne d'Albrets, besides the Queen regnant of Navarre. There is Jeanne d'Albret (1403- 1433), the eldest daughter of Charles I of Albret (ill-fated French commander at the Battle of Agincourt), and his granddaughter, Jeanne d'Albret (died 1444). That is not the point here. Wikipedia has naming conventions for monarchs. Jeanne III of Navarre is more appropriate even if she is better known as Jeanne d'Albret.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:35, 6 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Even if either had articles, the queen Jeanne d'Albret is much more famous. Other monarchs on Wikipedia are titled similarly to the proposed, such as Charlemagne, Maria Theresa, Peter the Great, Queen Victoria, Juan Carlos I. The Celestial City (talk) 18:00, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Celestial City, 84.92.117.93, and WP:COMMONNAME. Dohn joe (talk) 19:29, 6 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The most common name should be the title of the article whenever possible, and this person is clearly the primary topic for the proposed name. Jafeluv (talk) 13:19, 12 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, naming conventions are to be applied flexibly - where there's another much commoner name (and the topic is primary for that name), we should use that (it's perfectly in accordance with WP:NCROY anyway, as the guideline allows for exceptions and mentions some).--Kotniski (talk) 14:17, 12 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment- There appears to be a clear consensus to move the article to her best-known name rather than keep the standard Wikipedia title preferred for monarchs. But now we have to decide whether the article should be Jeanne d'Albret or Jeanne of Albret. I don't think Joan should be used as I've never seen her called Joan in any book or document.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:37, 12 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There doesn't seem to be much doubt - looking at both Google books and scholar (and adding "queen" to keep to English-language results) there seems to be a huge majority for the d' form.--Kotniski (talk) 10:15, 13 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as all monarch artichels should conform to Monarch # of Country. GoodDay (talk) 19:52, 12 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, they don't have to, and they don't. --Kotniski (talk) 10:15, 13 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
They should only be titled in that form if that is how they are commonly known; see my examples above. The Celestial City (talk) 16:34, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Needs fleshing out[edit]

The article is rather brief for someone as notable as Jeanne. Each section needs fleshing out - in particular the Queen of Navarre and French wars of religion sections, seeing as she was a key player in the latter event.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:27, 7 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have done quite a bit of expansion. There is a plethora of information about Jeanne which could be added in order to make the article even more complete.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:19, 8 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Questionable source[edit]

Mark Strage, Women of Power: The Life and Times of Catherine de' Medici. According to a review of his book, "Cape to Cairo:Rape of a Continent", he is said to be a magazine editor and free-lance writer.[1] Therefore, this source would not be considered a reliable source. --Kansas Bear (talk) 04:26, 22 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jeanne_d%27Albret&oldid=1207809026"