Talk:Astana

RFC - Requested revert to Astana

Since Astana is the more used name in English (sources: Google Scholar, Google Trends) - The article's name should be reverted to Astana. Tecumseh*1301 (talk) 07:20, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

This is not an RfC matter. Please see WP:RM. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 18:33, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

„The arguments in favor of the proposal aren't based in policy while the opposes are.“ This is how the discussion about the Requested move of the article Allahabad to Prayagraj was decided, meaning because there is mich evidence that the name Allahabad still is being more often used in English language, the article's name on Wikipedia in accordance to the Wikipedia naming conventions should stay the old one, other arguments being not of enough interest.

Therefore this has to applied here as well.

--Tecumseh*1301 (talk) 16:35, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Do you even understand what a name change is? It doesn't matter which language, the name Astana will probably linger for a while because the change is recent. Moreover, people usually don't think about this country a lot, so acknowledging the change will take a while.--2001:16B8:31B6:9800:7DF5:64D4:3584:FF57 (talk) 13:13, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 8 October 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: NOT MOVED. Pointy disruption; see this discussion. This closure is not intended to create prejudice against any properly justified RM, in future. TrangaBellam (talk) 20:55, 8 October 2021 (UTC) TrangaBellam (talk) 20:55, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

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Nur-Sultan → Astana – „The arguments in favor of the proposal aren't based in policy while the opposes are.“ This is how the discussion about the Requested move of the article Allahabad to Prayagraj was decided a few days ago, meaning because there is much evidence that the name Allahabad still is being more often used in English language, the article's name on Wikipedia in accordance to the Wikipedia naming conventions should stay the old one, other arguments being not of enough interest.

Therefore this has to applied here as well, since Astana is the more used term in English sources. On the basis Google Scholar and Google Trends among others Tecumseh*1301 (talk) 17:03, 8 October 2021 (UTC) Tecumseh*1301 (talk) 17:03, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose "Nur-Sultan" is commonly used by news sources (Reuters, National Post, Chronicle Herald, just to name the first few that popped up on my Google search.) 162 etc. (talk) 19:10, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 9 October 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: (non-admin closure) NOT MOVED User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 04:29, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Speculation about possible future name-changes of the city is speculation, and is disregarded. Other comments demonstrate consensus against this move proposal. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 04:29, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

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Nur-Sultan → Astana – Astana is the more widely used Name in the English language Tecumseh*1301 (talk) 18:27, 9 October 2021 (UTC) Tecumseh*1301 (talk) 18:27, 9 October 2021 (UTC) — Relisting. Vpab15 (talk) 20:27, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

@Tecumseh*1301: Please provide evidence for this.-- Toddy1 (talk) 19:15, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Comment @TrangaBellam: You speedy closed an identical RM by User:Tecumseh*1301 yesterday, what is going on here? 162 etc. (talk) 19:30, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

@162 etc. This is an aftermath of a failed RM at Talk:Allahabad#Requested move 20 September 2021, in which Tecumseh argued that, Astana is the common name and not Nur-Sultan and yet moved to Nur-Sultan. We advised Tecumseh that Allahabad's talk page is not the correct page for a discussion on whereabouts of Astana-Nur-Sultan, and asked to take the matter to respective pages. Thus these postings since yesterday. — DaxServer (talk to me) 21:02, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

• Speedy close (again). This was just closed, and no additional evidence has been provided. O.N.R. ^(talk) 21:01, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Either this was speedy closed because of a formality because I compared the Allahabad discussion with this Nur-Sultan discussion, and this wouldnt be the "right reason".. or this was speedy closed wrongfully.

Here is your evidence:

In English in comparison almost nobody writes Nur-Sultan

You can use any Kind of source, Google Trends, Google Scholar, but Google Books Ngram Viewer is more reliable than other sources.

--Tecumseh*1301 (talk) 08:40, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

• Comment: Ngrams currently goes up to 2019, and the name was changed in 2019 - Ngrams is not reliable in this case. Google trends suggests that Astana remains the more common search term, this appears to be tainted, primarily by the tennis open. Meanwhile, a (very brief) review of recent news reports suggests that when it comes to the city, the vast majority of reliable sources use Nur-Sultan, not Astana. However, I've held off !voting as Tecumseh seems to have evidence in the form of Google Scholar, as well as possibly Google trends - a speedy close would seem to be in order, with no barrier to a new RM if and only if Tecumseh can present strong evidence that Astana remains the common name. BilledMammal (talk) 12:23, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

An exclusionary search using Google Scholar by year (as of 10 Oct 2021)
Date range	Both A and N-S	Astana only	Nur-Sultan only	% both	% A only	% N-S only
2020	1,760	6,450	3,800	14.7%	53.7%	31.6%
2021	1,070	3,590	2,810	14.3%	48.1%	37.6%

Well, this was what dear User Toddy1 wrote on my talk page.

To be honest, this right now seems to be higher mathemtics to me, I wasnt able to check the numbers on Google Scholar back.

But as he writes, the numbers stem from searching Nur Sultan with and without the hyphen, but still, if taken together,the numbers for Nur-Sultan and Nur Sultan (hopefully not including the namegiving Kazakhian politician, this has to be checked as well) the results in 2021 for Nur-Sultan alone remain more than 10 percent or more than 700 entries lower than for Astana only, in 2020 it was over 2000 more entries / 20 % higher, so

that it is obvious, that the name Astana still is more common on Google Scholar.

--Tecumseh*1301 (talk) 19:02, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:NAMECHANGES.--Ortizesp (talk) 17:24, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

WP:NAMECHANGES says "If the reliable sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match. If, on the other hand, reliable sources written after the name change is announced continue to use the established name, Wikipedia should continue to do so as well". The name change took place in March 2019, but the evidence from Google Scholar shows that many reliable sources written in 2020 and 2021 use continue to Astana, and that this is more common than Nur-Sultan. So surely WP:NAMECHANGES supports Tecumseh*1301's proposal to change the article name back to Astana?-- Toddy1 (talk) 18:07, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Central Asia has been notified of this discussion. VR _talk 14:04, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose based on previous discussions -GorgonaJS (talk) 02:33, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
• Comment. I closed this as "not moved" but have reopened it to allow more editors to participate after the nom requested it. It would be good to have a stronger consensus to avoid future RMs. Vpab15 (talk) 20:27, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Cities has been notified of this discussion. Vpab15 (talk) 20:28, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Central Asia has been notified of this discussion. Vpab15 (talk) 20:28, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

• Comment I will tend to oppose it, due to fact that vast majority of reliable source now using Nur-Sultan than Astana, even ATP Tour website referred the city as Nursultan here. I suspect the RM was conduct due Astana having long-term significance. 182.1.11.8 (talk) 00:00, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

The source uses both Nur-Sultan and Astana: "for a place in the Nur-Sultan quarter-finals", "made to work hard during his Astana Open title defence", "reach the last eight in Nur-Sultan", "Watch highlights of Wednesday action at the Astana Open". -- Toddy1 (talk) 11:12, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

I would note that it uses "Astana" in reference to the tennis tournament (still called the "Astana Open"), and the location as "Nur-Sultan". BilledMammal (talk) 04:37, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

The name Astana is still used preferrably in:

Astana Open (Tennis tournament) Astana Opera (building) FC Astana (Football Team) Astana Tigers (Basketball) Astana Presidential Forum Astana International Finance Centre

among many others (these are only the big ones)

Another question: Does anyone believe, this christened after a still alive president name, will endure much long after this presidents death?

Look at the recent history and you know that renamed cities after political Leaders will be renamed again.

It only needs political people in Power of the government, who don't accept the Status Quo and want to give it yet another Name, how it Has happened for a long time.

--Tecumseh*1301 (talk) 22:11, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Revert to Astana

As of January 6th, 2022 Nur-Sultan has reverted to Astana per the new government.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Delcorpo00 (talk • contribs) 01:01, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

I haven't found any sources saying it was renamed can you please provide one? Poketama (talk) 10:35, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

A step as foreseeable as snow in the winter - renamings of cities after politicians is a very short-lived story, but English Wikipedia didn't know this yet..

Plus - as evidence was already shown, Astana is still the common name in English Media and other sources.

Pro move to Astana - Rename the article quickly. Tecumseh*1301 (talk) 09:06, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

• @Tecumseh*1301:The RM was closed as "Not moved", the move review was endorsed, and you were even nominated for a topic ban a couple months ago. I urge you to accept the consensus found by the community. 162 etc. (talk) 00:20, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

  The name of "Nur Sultan is erroneous. The city has officially reverted to "Astana". It matters what the Wikipedia community 'think' is more commonly used. Nicholas V.I. DelCorpo (talk) 05:58, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

  • It matters not at all what the Wikipedia community 'thinks' is the more commonly used term. This is an encyclopedia based on fact, the fact is the official name using Latin script is "Astana". It does not matter how often a word is used or what people call something at a certain that decides what it is officially called. It is "Astana (also known in colloquial English as "Nur Sultan") or "Astana "(formerly Nur Sultan), either one of those is factually accurate and still caters to your club of journalist who I guess decide the English language now. ... Nicholas V.I. DelCorpo (talk) 06:02, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

@162 etc.: Well, I suggest you start reading, maybe then you wouldn't write such a bucket of ****

1. Everyone can suggest a topic ban, I can suggest you for a topic ban.

if the topic ban wasn't carried out, it seems obvious, that this shouldn't even me mentioned to everyone who thinks clearly.

2. Astana always stayed the common name, the "community" of which you talk, were a couple of people, who don't always pull the right decisions, right? Other Wikipedianers like not only myself tried to correct the wrong, with evidence. The evidence wasn't accepted by some people, who are NOT THE SO-CALLED community.

3. Right now is a new situation. Even the official name was changed, the new leader, naming Kassym-Jomart Tokayev, is in strong opposition to Nursultan Nazarbayev, how long do you think the city will still be called "Nur sultan" well..in fact it is not called "Nursultan" anymore, as Delcorpo00 wrote.

So not even that. In English sources city has never been called Nursultan by the majority

And now it is not even the official name any longer.

If English Wikipedia now sticks to the name Nursultan, it is just being stupid..

--Tecumseh*1301 (talk) 05:43, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

This is 100% correct. change the name to its official one, Astana" Nicholas V.I. DelCorpo (talk) 05:46, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Has the name of your capital been officially changed to Astana yet? Kurmanbek (talk) 20:45, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, [1] is the citation in the article and it has been reported by dozens of other outlets as well. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 21:16, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

But Official website of Kazakhstan Presidency and Nur-Sultan's official website still using Nur-Sultan. Kurmanbek (talk) 19:01, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Soon to change. News sources of 13 September 2022 (Guardian and https://eurasianet.org/kazakhstan-capital-reverts-to-astana-ending-brief-stint-as-nur-sultan; Kazinform has not mentioned it [yet]) say it "will" revert to Astana. They don't make clear when it is or will be officially in effect. Hopefully, in the next few days, it will be cleared up.

This is all about official and announcement and changes in September; there was nothing official in January. When the change is in effect, Wikipedia should move the page, leaving a re-direct for the current title. Kdammers (talk) 19:09, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Comments from 12 January 2022

News sources parrot one another, just because News sources use "Nur- Sultan" doesn't make it widely used in the English language. I don't know if an assessment of word usage based on submitted research papers, periodicals, and any other written, published work widely available and searchable on the internet. More importantly, the cities official name in Kazak documents and state functions has reverted to Astana. Name another city that was named by the person in power that outlived them, and still is in effect. Stalingrad anyone? Nicholas V.I. DelCorpo (talk) 05:52, 12 January 2022 (UTC) (The above comment is moved from Special:Diff/1065174899 section titled "Requested move 9 October 2021" which is closed for further comments — DaxServer (talk) 09:54, 12 January 2022 (UTC))

Can you provide a source showing that the city's official name have reverted? Poketama (talk) 10:36, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

• I'm too waiting for updating. Kurmanbek (talk) 18:53, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Moved back to the current name. — kashmīrī ^TALK 19:43, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

badly written

a lot of the article reads like an advertisement, complete with lack of sources and over-detailed descriptions of the cities services and facilties. this would need the attention of someone more versed in writing city articles. 46.15.169.229 (talk) 17:02, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Page move

The article was already moved back to Astana, but on what basis? Tokayev approved a proposal for the name change but there is still a process for this name change to happen, so the city is still known as Nur-Sultan.[2] Mellk (talk) 02:47, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

The name change has been widely reported in international English-language press [3][4][5]. Given the shortness of the period for which it was known as Nur-Sultan and its prior history as Astana, there is little reason to think that "Astana" will not be used as a common name moving forward, as persistence of old names tends to only happen when the prior name has a long history, or where the new name is controversial. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:22, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

I was not saying it would not become common name or possibly would not, I was saying it seemed a little premature (when it was moved on the 13th) because it was reported that the president agreed to a name change, but the name change did not happen yet. This was reflected in the reporting. Only today did this happen as he signed amendments. Regards. Mellk (talk) 20:55, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, I recognize that now, having seen some reports of the Pope's visit a few days ago still referring to it as Nur Sultan. In my defense, most of the news reports available in English on the day it was announced used language that suggested that it had already gone into effect, and made no mention of the existence of a further process for finalizing the change. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 21:09, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

I did notice that as well with a couple articles I saw, but at this point it doesn't matter. At least there was not a surprise 180 on the issue. Mellk (talk) 21:35, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

• As always, Wikipedia was in too much of a hurry. The name was changed today (19 September), not on 17 September – the decree and the act on renaming the capital (and on changes in the constitution) have only been published today: [6], [7]. Aotearoa (talk) 15:02, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Bozok

Kristianmusic, you seem to be in dispute with Kazman322 about whether to include Bozok as an alternative name for the current city of Astana--based on the current article text, it seems like it was a prior settlement in a similar location, but not literally the same city. What sources inform your understanding that it is in fact an alternative name for the same city? _signed, Rosguill ^talk 14:52, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

• 1. Bozok was located 11 km from Akmolinsk in 1861
• 2. Bozok was completely abandoned in the XIV century, and Akmolinsk was founded in 1861, so this city cannot be called one settlement. (source) Kazman322 (talk) 15:02, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

This has already been clarified on the Russian Wikipedia, but the user Kristianmusic still wants to promote his point of view in other parts of the wiki. Kazman322 (talk) 15:04, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

About coat of arms of Astana

Hi, As far as I can see from Astana Akimat's social media accounts, the Astana coat of arms is now used as ASTANA written in Latin letters. In fact, it is written as "ASTANA" in the law named "On the definition and order of use of the symbols of Astana, the capital of the Republic of Kazakhstan". However, the user named @216.94.43.6 is constantly undoing the change. Now I think it's an ulterior motive. Kurmanbek (talk) 18:41, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I see it now. that's okay. undo my undos. 216.94.43.6 (talk) 19:48, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

no ulterior motive btw, you changed the logo with no reason or evidence and even the official website is not using what the law is stating. 216.94.43.6 (talk) 19:50, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• KazMunayGaz in Astana Kazakhstan.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:22, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Climate

An absolutely semi arid and not continental climate. From a person who have been to the city, and knows continental climate cities דולב חולב (talk) 23:24, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Everyone who knows Kazakhstan knows the big difference between the relatively wet Almaty with big trees, and nice parks to the dry Astana with barely any trees. For sure not trees that gan grow tall enough. דולב חולב (talk) 00:18, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Climate

Also, the city sits in the steppe region. another confirmation that it’s part of the cold semi arid and not continental climate

דולב חולב (talk) 00:10, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

I don’t disagree with the semi-arid envoirment.

But it is not classified as BSk in Koppen scheme which consideres a threshold of 200mm for Astana to be semi-arid, I don’t know about other classification systems which may put Astana in their semi-arid category.PAper GOL (talk) 06:57, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Maybe things has changed since koppen gave it its classification? Because I know Astana, trees aren’t growing there. you can talk to people who’s living there. Everyone consider it as cold semi arid.

Continental climates does featuring trees.

and as I’ve told you, that’s the known contrast between Almaty and Astana. [8] דולב חולב (talk) 10:56, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Well, I think it would be better to use a detailed work of classification which is specifically for Kazakhstan as an extra reference in this section for further clarification.

Still, It has Dfb Classification and Dfb is not called semi-arid in any published works for Koppen.PAper GOL (talk) 11:01, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

We may call it semi-arid with continental influence because annual precipitation is quite close to the dry threshold.

I tried to classify its Climate in Trewartha climate classification as well, again not in Group B(Dry).PAper GOL (talk) 11:13, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Then please, change it the climate section. I’ve remembered in a great example, of a city with a same amount of rainfall with even wetter environment, which still consider as cold semi arid - Denver Colorado! If Denver considered as semi arid, Astana must be too! דולב חולב (talk) 01:49, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Denver’s precipitation is more concentrated in summer than Astana. this would change its formulation and make it more likely to be semi-arid(even that changes to humid continental in some suburbs).

As I said before a detailed classification specific for Kazakhstan is the best reference we can find.

Koppen’s Dfb is already cited. Not much can be done for it.PAper GOL (talk) 05:29, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Besides, Denver is almost 20 degrees warmer than Astana in winter, this factor also increases its evaporation and the dry threshold.PAper GOL (talk) 06:37, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Looks like we have to agree to disagree.

But i know, and the residents of Astana knows, it’s a cold semi arid city. דולב חולב (talk) 03:17, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

The residents are not reliable sources.

And I said several times that there is no specific 400mm threshold in Köppen classification. It is calculated based on the formulas in Semi-arid climate and for Astana is less than 300mm, because the winters are extremely cold (20 degrees colder than Denver). So no, the classification for the given 30-year period is not in group B if we use the data in this table, even if the biome is steppe. PAper GOL (talk) 06:14, 1 March 2024 (UTC)