Talk:Seventeen Provinces

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Untitled[edit]

Ack, the horror of articles start in 2002 by anon users. I fear this is still terribly garbled. Will have to make improving it a project - I've made a start, I think. john k 06:03, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Number Seventeen[edit]

Does anybody know if the "Seventeen Provinces" were actually a term used at the time, or if it was made up later? Because when actually looking at the map, it's hard to figure out exactly how you come to a number of seventeen. Areas which could potentially be counted are:

Holland
Zealand
Utrecht
Groningen
Friesland
Overyssel
Drenthe (not counted?)
Gelderland
Brabant
Flanders
Mechelen
Walloon Flanders
Douai
Tournai
Artois
Cambrai (which, I think, doesn't count, because it was a bishopric)
Luxembourg
Namur
Hainaut
Limburg
Antwerp

I I'm not mistaken, that comes out to 21 provinces. I know that Cambrai was a bishopric and that Drenthe isn't counted as one of the seven provinces of the United Provinces, so I suppose that brings us down to 19. But which two of the remaining ones go? I feel as though I've never even seen a map which shows exactly seventeen provinces - many show less, and some show more, and even the ones that can be jiggered to show seventeen don't always agree with each other - Antwerp, for instance, is occasionally shown as separate from Brabant, and sometimes as part of it. Walloon Flanders and Tournai are sometimes part of Flanders, sometimes separate. Douai I've only seen shown as separate on rare occasions... does anyone know? john k 21:20, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It's hard to say what the 17 Provinces were. I haven't come across a clean list yet. The problem resides in the fact that there were Provinces and City states. ---moyogo

The status in 1555, according to a website of Leiden university:

het hertogdom Brabant
het hertogdom Limburg, met de landen van Overmaze
het hertogdom Luxemburg
het hertogdom Gelder met Zutphen
het graafschap Vlaanderen
het graafschap Artois
het graafschap Henegouwen
het graafschap Holland
het graafschap Zeeland
het graafschap Namen
de steden en kasselrijen van Rijsel, Douai en Orchies
de stad Doornik en het Doornikse
de heerlijkheid Mechelen
de heerlijkheid Friesland
de heerlijkheid Utrecht
de heerlijkheid Overijssel met Drente
de heerlijkheid Groningen.

This list equals the one on nl:Zeventien Provinciën. Provinces that are in the present list, but not in the Dutch one are: Zutphen (belongs to Guelders) and Antwerp (belongs to Brabant). Missing provinces are Lille/Douai/Orchies and Tournai (Doornik). I'll correct the list accordingly. Markussep 11:50, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I just wanted to remark that the number of seventeen provinces is probably symbolic (as in sounding better than 16 or 18 provinces). I know that various lists exist that give the names of the 17 provinces, but those are recent trys to justify the number, rather than a historically correct list. The most probabale explanation is that is was somehow based on the number of titles that Karel V posseses (wich was continually growing). About Antwerp: Antwerp and Mechelen were both taken from the duchy Brabant because of the disputed sucession of Jan III in 1355, his oldest daughter succeeded him, but a younger daughter was married to the count of Flanders and was given these two cities as "heerlijkheden".

Why don't we use the Dutch wikipedia/University of Leiden version listed above? This would involve removing Drenthe and Zutphen and adding Tournai and Walloon Flanders (i.e. Lille/Douai/Orchies). What do people think? john k 23:30, 27 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

numbers on the map appear to be off[edit]

I don't know exactly which provinces are / aren't inluded in the 'official' 17 but I think the numbers on the map don't fully correspond to the main text. The ones in brackets (why are they in brackets, by the way?) are in the wrong place.

In the past, the name 'Groningen' referred to just the city of Groningen, the surrounding area was 'de Ommelanden' (which litt. means 'the surrounding lands'). Nowadays the city + ommelanden together form the province of Groningen. So nr. 14 is just the city; where it says 14 on the map should be 15.

Drente (nr. 16) is where it says 15 on the map.

Overijssel (nr. 17) is where it says 16 on the map.

The number 17 on the map is the county of Zutphen, which does not have a number of its own in the list because it was part of Gelder (Guelders).

What is also not very clear on the map at all is that the area between 11 and 17 is part of Guelders (the duchy of Guelders was split up over two areas not connected to each other)

62.58.28.98 10:59, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is mostly disputed which the Seventeen provinces actually are. I have read an article [1](dutch) from the university of Leiden which says that the name 'seventeen provinces' was invented during the civil war against the Spanish, and that it had been chosen so for its christian connotation. Later historians have tried to give an exact account of this list but came up with several versions, which worked confusing over the last centuries. Anyway, I propose chosing a particular list and staying with it, and explaining that there are other lists too. I have changed County of Mechelen in Lordship of Mechelen, because Mechelen was not a county. Greetings 87.64.170.58 12:37, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is 9 in a very wrong place, or did Antwerp have an exclave? —Tamfang (talk) 05:11, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Number 9 in the map is Limburg. Antwerp was part of Brabant in 1477, so I think it shouldn’t be listed separately. Markussep ^Talk 07:07, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The numbers in the list in the article do not seem to be matched to the map you mention. As described in the article there were different ways of splitting the country up into 17. This should eventually be explained more clearly in the article. FWIW number 9 in that map is corresponding to not only the old Duchy of Limburg lands but also the Overmaas lands to their north which our first list says were counted together with Brabant. I think the Overmaas and Limburg lands were more typically handled together.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:53, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"personal union"?[edit]

Was there (as stated) a "personal union" between the seventeen provinces? The link refers to the Koninkrijk Nederrland and Groothertogdom Luxembourg, during the nineteeth century, and not during the 1500's.

Jacob. 174.1.172.101 (talk) 18:41, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Notice of discussion at Spanish Netherlands[edit]

A discussion has begun at Talk:Spanish Netherlands#1555 vs 1581 that may affect this page. Ibadibam (talk) 23:21, 29 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]