Talk:Muay Thai

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Missing footnote for strong claim

Footnote six is a dead link. This references an important claim in the lede, one which you always hear in the histories of the martial arts- "our martial artists handily defeated a bunch of dudes from other styles blah blah blah"- and is usually spurious, the strutting of a kuchi bushi. The sentence will be removed soon by yours truly unless real documentation can be provided. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.65.215.149 (talk) 04:10, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Article attacks

The Muay Thai article is experiencing multiple attacks, some in the form of section blanking, some in the form of self promotion. I'd like to propose that someone with rollback User rights revert the article to a stable previous version and Semi-protect the article to deflect future vandalism. Thanks! — Jdcollins13 (talk) 16:42, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

 Note:Also requested on relevant WikiProject Talkpages. — Jdcollins13 (talk) 16:48, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

I've reverted the article to what appears to me to be the last good version. Semi-protection is unlikely to be granted if requested at WP:RPP since there isn't frequent enough vandalism, at least I don't see it. I'll also note that nearly the entire article lacks references. The only citations are in the lead, which usually shouldn't contain references since it should be a rehash of referenced material in the body of the article. Someone who is familiar with the topic area and where sources can be found may want to give some attention to the article. --TreyGeek (talk) 17:11, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Understood. Thanks very much for your help. — Jdcollins13 (talk) 18:47, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

There's a claim about Rama V that he "ushered in a golden age not only for muay but for the whole country of Thailand" This seems to be off topic patriotism. -- like, while we're talking about Thai fighting, let's put in a plug for the monarchy...

05:36, 18 October 2015 (UTC)05:36, 18 October 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rayk sland (talk • contribs)

Nonsense about Eight limbs

"The art of eight limbs" is a term that I have seen in print for ten years, without being attributed to anyone significant. Is the term significant in Thai? It probably is not significant in English, partially because elbows and arms are not counted as seperate limbs—making the term somewhat nonsense. --Followmaigoose (talk) 12:21, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi. The term itself is not of Thai origin, but was called so by European announcers during the sports first televised event in 1921. Little do people actually know, that the sport can attribute most of it's development and history to the French, and their martial art, Savate, which is much MUCH older and very similar. The term itself is really a hyperbole. Anyone foolish enough to actually think of any truth of it should really never leave school at all. Humans only have 4 limbs, and because fist and elbows are on the SAME limbs, it really should, literally, be known as the science of 4 limbs. What I'd really prefer to call it, "Nothing really special". There really is too much bullshit surrounding the sport that too many people think it's true. --Snugglbunny (talk) 10:10, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

It was Nine Weapons for bare knuckle--the head being used for strategy and the use of the head butt--symbolizing both the mental strategy and the physical action. When the art was streamlined down it became the art of eight weapons(the headbutting was removed). Savate did not play a role in ancient bare knuckle as there are distinct and varied styles of bare knuckle like Korat which is very different from Chaiya which is very different from Lop Buri, the flow and new structure once bare knuckle was banned generated what we know today as Muay Thai. Again numerous conjecture on the part of the french and savate practitioners. if you see the varied kicks of the original bare knuckle you will see a vast and complete arsenal. The melding of westernized rules of sportsmanship, gloves, ref and ring for example with the ancient arsenal produced Muay Thai just like the older arsenal of street fighting and modern sport joined into what we see today as Savate. You have to understand the ancient arts before Muay Thai to see how it clearly came together which very few do within Thailand and outside of Thailand. Vincent Giordano 8 July 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.164.151.179 (talk)

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Adding More Material

In this article there should be more about the tradition behind Muay Thai by talking about those that teach it (Kru). By adding this to the article the reader would gain more insight about how the fighters prepare and train. There could be a section about the wai, this is a critical part of Thai culture and is a big part of Muay Thai that has been skipped over.PaulrdUC (talk) 14:18, 26 October 2018 (UTC) PaulrdUC (talk) 14:18, 5 October 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by PaulrdUC (talk • contribs) 12:53, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Planning on making edits

I plan on editing the article in the near future. I will be removing some of the words in the headings such as the word "fable" in the Folklore/fable section, and changing the "The Mongkhon and Pra Jiad" section and changing that to "Traditional Wear". I believe by doing this it will make the article easer to read as it will start broad and move into a more specific point of view when talking about some of the garments worn during the pre-fight. I will also be taking out the last paragraph in the Conditioning section. This paragraph does not belong in this section as it does not pertain directly to conditioning and could confuse the reader. I will be changing the heading of Children to "Children in Muay Thai" this will give a good background for the reader as they can associate children with the sport instead of just trowing in the word children which could lead them anywhere. Lastly, I will be added a section about injuries. This section will give the reader insight about what kind of injuries happen in Muay Thai and will further their understanding of the physicality of the sport. PaulrdUC (talk) 05:42, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Muay Thai or muay Thai

Recently a user has been changing "Muay Thai" to "muay Thai", with only the second word capitalized. I was wondering which one was proper. Tagging the user @Natboss:. Inter&anthro (talk) 04:14, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Why would muay (มวย) be capitalised? It means 'boxing' or 'fisticuffs'. It also means 'chignon' or topknot (hairstyle) and มวยหมู่ means 'gang warfare'. It is a noun, not a proper noun. We use the construction "American football", not "American Football". Seligne (talk) 04:51, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm guessing because most media outlets and blogs use the former with both capitalized than the latter with only Thai capitalized 1 2 3. I haven't seen many, or really any, instances of muay Thai being used. Inter&anthro (talk) 05:27, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

And... "Muaythai" is the recognized name of Muay Thai from the IOC, but most medias outlets hardly use this word too. --Natboss (talk) 07:18, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

I have reverted Natboss's out-of-process category changes; Russbot should take care of changing the articles back. The category naming should be discussed at CfD, but that discussion would benefit from some sort of consensus here first. I'd say the capitalisation "muay Thai" is plainly incorrect, since it isn't a compound noun composed of two independent English words (if it were so, it would be "Thai muay", following the English word order). Instead, it's a loanword from มวยไทย, and should be treated as a single unit. Either it is a proper noun, and thus capitalised "Muay Thai", or it should be treated as a common noun and de-capitalised, i.e. "muay thai". The latter would reflect the treatment of similar words like pad thai, which appears in dictionaries uncapitalised. However, muay thai hasn't yet made its way into most major dictionaries, and the only online one I found, Collins Dictionary[1], has it capitalised as "Muay Thai". --Paul_012 (talk) 10:05, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Or use "muaythai" instead? The "muaythai" is coined by International Federation of Muaythai Associations for reducing conflict with Laos (Muay Lao), Cambodia (Pradal serey) and Myanmar (Lethwei) that ban the word of "Muay Thai" from Thailand's claim and use "Muay" instead. And the world of "muaythai" is recognized by IOC, FISU, IWGA, OCA etc. Main organizations use "muaythai" including World Muaythai Council (sanctioned by Royal Thai Government), International Federation of Muaythai Associations (recognized by IOC, FISU, IWGA, OCA), and World Boxing Council Muaythai (sanctioned by World Boxing Council). --Natboss (talk) 10:46, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

That would be an option to consider, but I don't think it sees usage by the majority of English-language sources, per WP:COMMONNAME. Google Ngram Viewer does show capitalised "Muay Thai" to be the overwhelmingly most common form. --Paul_012 (talk) 10:09, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Either way, the proper process is 1) article naming discussion here (I suggest the broadly advertised WP:RM process), and ONLY once that reaches consensus should any CfD discussion be opened (which can be a speedy CfD if the article naming discussion results in a renaming of the article: speedy renaming criterion C2D), and 3) if the CfD results in category name changes, the necessary category creations/deletions and page recategorizations be performed by a bot, NOT by manual user editing. UnitedStatesian (talk) 03:21, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Another spelling change, mentioned above, that I don't know has consensus is "Muaythai" rather than "Muay thai" or "Muay Thai" (as in Muaythai at the 2005 Asian Indoor Games). Are these page moves & more category renames that need to be undone or is this an acceptable spelling that meets with consensus? Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 17:10, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Still wondering about these categories and pages with "Muaythai" rather than "Muay Thai"...should they be changed back? Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 17:19, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

I guess it could be argued if a certain spelling is preferred by certain sporting events, but it's probably far from uncontroversial. Maybe better revert those moves and start RMs if desired. --Paul_012 (talk) 18:05, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Interesting. I just assumed it was just incorrect grammar. I noticed the capitals too and "corrected" it but I am not familiar with the standard format. So what's the consensus? Capitals or no capitals? Because you guys aren't that clear. 49.186.54.163 (talk) 22:54, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Not a forum

Muay thai ,muay boran&muay chaiya ,others similar martial arts are lineages of burmese lethwei It is very clear.in word " muay thai", "muay" meaning is waving,striking in burmese language." Thai" is formerly known as thai people. Muay thai simply mean striking martial art of thai people . Thai people learnt lethwei during warring states period and later they modified this art and renamed as muay thai. Thai prince naresuan is first learner of lethwei when he is hostaged in burmese palace . Burmese king bayint naung treat him like a burmese prince and taught burmese tradition . Later he came back to thailand and rebelled back with this art. He betrayed his faith . Neoamon15 (talk) 05:47, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Cambodian People try to Claim Muay Thai

It is no such an evidence that Muay thai was originated from bokator at all. In every thai cultural related article , You can see a pattern that everything is originate from Cambodian culture in Angkorian period. The references about Bokator thing in this article is not reliable. The International Federation of Muaythai Associations is an international muaythai organization that provides a history of muaythai https://muaythai.sport/history-of-muaythai . To the one Who locked this article . if you don't unlock the article ,your account will be on a news article for spreading a false information. Jacquelineminova (talk) 09:47, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

i don't think that person will care.

They just came here for self satisfied indulgence. 2001:44C8:4222:A79F:3D68:F778:9158:AF22 (talk) 10:28, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

The origins of Muay Thai (Thai boxing) can be traced back to the ancient martial arts practices of Thailand, where hand-to-hand combat was an essential part of warfare. The development of Muay Thai as a sport can be traced to the Ayutthaya period (1351-1767), where soldiers trained in hand-to-hand combat for self-defense and battlefield use. Over time, the practice evolved into a popular form of entertainment, with contests being held at local festivals and royal events.

During the reign of King Rama V (1868-1910), Muay Thai began to gain popularity as a national sport, and in 1913, the first formal rules for the sport were established. Since then, Muay Thai has become a global sport, with competitions held in countries around the world.

References:

1. C. M. Moreira, "The cultural politics of muay thai and the construction of national identity in Thailand," The International Journal of the History of Sport, vol. 30, no. 4-5, pp. 507-522, 2013.

2. R. Poliquin, "The History of Muay Thai: Thailand's Martial Art," T-nation, 2018. [Online]. Available: https://www.t-nation.com/training/history-of-muay-thai. [Accessed: 04-Apr-2023].

3. M. Skelton, "Muay Thai: Thailand's national sport," CNN Travel, 2019. [Online]. Available: https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/muay-thai-thailand-sport/index.html. [Accessed: 04-Apr-2023].

4. S. Charoenphol, "Muay Thai: A Review of Physiological and Perceptual Responses during a Bout," Journal of Exercise Science & Fitness, vol. 11, no. 1, pp. 26-31, 2013.

5. T. Khunpinit and W. Saengsirisuwan, "Muay Thai Training and Exercise Improve Glycemic Control and Physical Performance in Type 2 Diabetes," Journal of Exercise Nutrition & Biochemistry, vol. 22, no. 4, pp. 1-9, 2018.

• • • I can confirm that Cambodia Claim Muay Thai. "It is no such an evidence that Muay thai was originated from bokator at all."
    • If the information is not corrected, it may make this article unreliable.

N.Thanapun (talk) 04:28, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 April 2023

The origins of Muay Thai (Thai boxing) can be traced back to the ancient martial arts practices of Thailand, where hand-to-hand combat was an essential part of warfare. The development of Muay Thai as a sport can be traced to the Ayutthaya period (1351-1767), where soldiers trained in hand-to-hand combat for self-defense and battlefield use. Over time, the practice evolved into a popular form of entertainment, with contests being held at local festivals and royal events. During the reign of King Rama V (1868-1910), Muay Thai began to gain popularity as a national sport, and in 1913, the first formal rules for the sport were established. Since then, Muay Thai has become a global sport, with competitions held in countries around the world.

References: 1. C. M. Moreira, "The cultural politics of muay thai and the construction of national identity in Thailand," The International Journal of the History of Sport, vol. 30, no. 4-5, pp. 507-522, 2013. 2. R. Poliquin, "The History of Muay Thai: Thailand's Martial Art," T-nation, 2018. [Online]. Available: https://www.t-nation.com/training/history-of-muay-thai. [Accessed: 04-Apr-2023]. 3. M. Skelton, "Muay Thai: Thailand's national sport," CNN Travel, 2019. [Online]. Available: https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/muay-thai-thailand-sport/index.html. [Accessed: 04-Apr-2023]. 4. S. Charoenphol, "Muay Thai: A Review of Physiological and Perceptual Responses during a Bout," Journal of Exercise Science & Fitness, vol. 11, no. 1, pp. 26-31, 2013. 5. T. Khunpinit and W. Saengsirisuwan, "Muay Thai Training and Exercise Improve Glycemic Control and Physical Performance in Type 2 Diabetes," Journal of Exercise Nutrition & Biochemistry, vol. 22, no. 4, pp. 1-9, 2018.

• • • I can confirm that Cambodia Claim Muay Thai. "It is no such an evidence that Muay thai was originated from bokator at all." This is confirmed
    • If the information is not corrected, it may make this article unreliable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by N.Thanapun (talk • contribs) 04:31, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. If relying on the sources you've listed here, please make clear which part of whatever you describe as needing to be changed will rely on which specific source (and, in the case the journal articles, which specific pages).--Pinchme123 (talk) 02:20, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Line : The origin of Muay Thai is subject to scholarly debates. Some believe that Muay Thai ultimately originated from the Khmer pre-Angkorean martial art Bokator while others maintain it originated in Thailand.

• • • Indeed, Muay Thai did not originate from Khmer. But Muay Thai originated and was developed from Muay boran

source of information :

1. มวยคาดเชือก wiki

2. Muay-boran.com เก็บถาวร 2011-02-03 ที่ เวย์แบ็กแมชชีน Muay Boran information site

3. French website on Muay Boran, Krabi Krabong and Muay Thai tpg-nakmuay.com

4. Ancient Thai Martial Arts เก็บถาวร 2010-05-29 ที่ เวย์แบ็กแมชชีน

5. Muay Boran at USMTA เก็บถาวร 2011-09-29 ที่ เวย์แบ็กแมชชีน

6. International Muay Boran Academy

7. Dutch Muay Boran Foundation เก็บถาวร 2021-05-10 ที่ เวย์แบ็กแมชชีน

8. IMBA in Belgium เก็บถาวร 2014-08-02 ที่ เวย์แบ็กแมชชีน

9. Muaychaiya Baanchangthai เก็บถาวร 2010-05-11 ที่ เวย์แบ็กแมชชีน N.Thanapun (talk) 10:11, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Muay Thai has nothing related to Cambodian martial arts

Please edit the history of Muay Thai. There is nothing related to Cambodian martial art, bokator MacMT (talk) 00:55, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 June 2023

Delete "(in Indonesian meaning is benjang or gelut galuh[3])." The phrasing is awkward + unverified claims. 2403:6200:89A6:5DA:9CEE:7455:3D72:E29D (talk) 09:46, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: There is a citation Lightoil (talk) 02:40, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

About Muay thai and it relations to Muay Mon

first of all i don't see any references of research, international journals of study attached in these articles about Bokator and Muaythai.

Second

Before the migration of tai ethnic group in 10 century in the central of Thailand another tai ethnic group already migrated here since Dvaravati period another tai ethnic group already settled their community since 6 century

Ref: Reconstructing the human genetic history of mainland Southeast Asia: insights from genome-wide data from Thailand and Laos

Mon and tai people mixed and became one nation called Siamese people under Ayutthaya kingdom

Ref :Dvāravatī: The Earliest Kingdom of Siam (6th to 11th Century A.D.). By H. G. Quaritch Wales. London: Bernard Quaritch Ltd., 1969. xiv, 149 pp. Illustrations, Bibliography, Index. 84s.

If we consider etymology of word "Muay" is a pure Sanskrit word derived from Mavya referring 2 meaning

1. Tie hair 2. Strike

Because Mon people use this word for reffering to boxing style (Muay mon) and thai people use this word also

Ref : https://www.palomar.edu/pages/mcastillo/muay-thai/

May i ask an question to who believe that Muaythai related to Bokator. Why they don't use this term of Muay to mean a Martial art insteadly they use Bokator or Kun Khmer?. And how Ayutthaya army destroyed Angkorian army without martial art?

even in Muaythai has a few technique referring to mon techqniue such "Mon Yant lak" Standing mon or Mon strike

this obviously Muaythai developed from MuayMon since Dvaravati period. Maijimizio (talk) 12:26, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Recently, a Cambodian musician watched a Thai movie "Ong-Bak" and "Tom Yum Goong," featuring famous Thai actor Tony Jaa performing traditional Muay Thai martial arts beautifully in the film.

The musician enjoyed it and copied the movements and gestures from the movie, possibly with some minor modifications. But overall, it resembled and was similar to the film and Muay Thai. They named it "Kun Khmer" and combined it with "Bokator". Star1519 (talk) 10:11, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Why do many Cambodians like to come and edit information about Thailand, especially in English, to make those references about Cambodia and claim that Thailand copied them from Cambodia?

In reality, Thailand and Cambodia were once part of the same country in the distant past, almost 1000 years ago, and we have been separate for a long time. Thailand has developed its own culture and traditions over a long period, while Cambodia has not made much progress. Recently, Thai dramas that depict the ancient history of Thailand have become popular in Cambodia. Cambodians enjoy them and believe that those things belong to Cambodia, using them to claim various rights in Thai culture. Star1519 (talk) 14:19, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Ban ip cambodia bokator not muaythai bokator dance not fight real muaythai not khmer 2001:FB1:41:AA5D:16:18A5:174C:9784 (talk) 23:09, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 July 2023

cambodia writing fake story Bold text 83.118.55.9 (talk) 08:59, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Deauthorized. ^(talk) 09:21, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Some cambodian want to change Muay thai History

Some Cambodians want to change the history of Muay Thai. therefore writing a new Muay Thai story why they're making fake story. 83.118.55.9 (talk) 09:12, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 February 2024

N.Thanapun (talk) 14:25, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 14:35, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Please delete: "Some believe that Muay Thai ultimately originated from the Khmer pre-Angkorean martial art Bokator, while others maintain it originated in Thailand" along with the part on Parenthood. The sources submitted are neither peer-reviewed nor published in an academic journal. Here are two peer-reviewed journals on the origins of Muay Thai (neither of which mention Bokator nor Cambodia as the origin of Muay Thai):

[2]Muay Thai: the consolidation of an invented tradition as a martial art

[3]Muay Thai: Inventing Tradition for a National Symbol

Both of the above sources came from Google Scholar (the latter needing institutional access or a subscription to the journal to view, however, this can be bypassed via a quick Google search of the article's name). 14.207.5.80 (talk) 10:59, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 February 2024

Please delete: "Some believe that Muay Thai ultimately originated from the Khmer pre-Angkorean martial art Bokator, while others maintain it originated in Thailand" along with the part on Parenthood (below Famous Practioners). The sources submitted are either opinion pieces or blogs that are neither peer-reviewed nor published in an academic journal. The following peer-reviewed journals on the origins of Muay Thai (neither of which mention Bokator nor Cambodia as the origin/parent of Muay Thai) should take precedence:

1. Muay Thai: the consolidation of an invented tradition as a martial art

2. Muay Thai: Inventing Tradition for a National Symbol

Both of the above sources are from Google Scholar (the latter needing institutional access or a subscription to the journal to view, however, this can be bypassed via a quick Google search of the article's title).

Edit: edit request re-opened. Reasoning of why the sentence (in bold) above should be removed has been clarified on a comment below Pierrevang3 post. All in all, there is no conclusive evidence to suggest that Bokator + Cambodia is the parent/origin of Muay Thai.

14.207.5.80 (talk) 13:53, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

 Partly done: For policy, I've reworded the contentious sentence but have not removed it. I've furthermore mentioned your professional sources.
— Urro^{[talk][edits]} 17:46, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Hi! I feel like the wording of your sentence does not really match the references put forward as neither deny Bokator as a parent of Muay Thai nor do they point towards another parent. Both seem to actually argue that the Thai government has tried to artificially link Muay Thai to an ancient Thai tradition.

"[...] conservative proponents of the sport in Thailand are reifying its history and inventing tradition to ensure that its Thai cultural trappings are not eroded." (2. Muay Thai: Inventing Tradition for a National Symbol)

Muay Thai should not be considered an ancient martial art. In fact, Muay Thai is an invented tradition: a cultural heritage characterized by an artificial continuity with its remote past. (1. Muay Thai: the consolidation of an invented tradition as a martial art)

If anything the references would rather deny the following point of the article: Muay Thai is believed to have been developed by the Siamese army Pierrevang3 (talk) 18:21, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Apologies for not making it clear. What I'm trying to convey is that there is no conclusive evidence to suggest that Bokator + Cambodia is the parent/origin of Muay Thai. The cited sources suggesting Bokator as the parent of Muay Thai are INCREDIBLY weak when scrutinized:

1. An OP-ed in a magazine.

2. An online blog post.

3. An OP-ed under the 'Lifestyle' column of a newspaper.

4. An OP-ed in Asian Journal that hasn't been peer-reviewed. Another online blogpost focused on Asian entertainment.

The origin(s) of Muay Thai is often disputed. This literature review excerpt by Vail, archived by JSTOR and published by Northern Illinois University, analyzes 4 plausible (yet disputed) origins of Muay Thai. Again, I am not trying prove whether or not Muay Thai was artificially developed by the Siamese army/Thai government, but to point out that there are no historical references nor evidence to suggest that Bokator is the origin of Muay Thai with today's literature. Unless you can come up with a counterevidence to suggest it is, please stop with the historical revisionism.

Edit: After rereading your post the second time around, there seems to be a logical fallacy in your argument: "... your sentence does not really match the references put forward as neither deny Bokator as a parent of Muay Thai nor do they point towards another parent." As mentioned above, I'm not arguing whether or not Bokator is the parent/origin of Muay Thai - I'm just pointing out that there is not enough evidence to suggest it is.

Edit 2: Strikethrough the part on logically fallacy as it was a fair critique by Pierrevang3. However, my reasoning of why the sentence should be removed still stands (as there is little to no credible evidence to suggest that Bokator is the parent of Muay Thai).

Edit 3: The quoted section by Pierrevang3 is quite misleading, as the user has omitted the entire prior paragraph, which differentiate the origins of Muay Thai as a martial arts (i.e., a combat sport) vs the origins of Muay Thai as a fighting arts. Here is the full quote:

Several sources present Muay Thai as a martial art, which became a combat sport between the 16th and 17th centuries [Guthman 1978]. However, considering the concept presented by Sebastien Darbon [2014] and the rules developed to avoid severe injuries and deaths during fights, one may consider Muay Thai to become a combat sport only during the 20th century’s first decades. This fighting style rapidly expanded West due to the growing popularity of MMA events. Most countries disregard Muay Thai’s cultural aspects, understanding it solely as a combat sport, training, and competition, and disrespecting its traditions [Kraitus 1988; Gomaratut 2011]. Based on Cynarski [2019], this modality must be understood as a fighting art due to its cultural, religious, self-defensive, and athletic aspects.
      Fighting arts originated between the 16th and 17th centuries in the region currently known as Thailand occurred at festivals and funeral ceremonies and were no more violent than those practiced today [Jacobs 2019]. Moreover, warriors from this modality frequently fought using their hands wrapped in ropes, but they did not dip these ropes in glue mixed with broken glass to cause severe injuries and bleeding during fights. This observation suggests that the modern details of the Nai Khanom Tom myth are not in keeping with those from historical facts [Jacobs 2019; Vail 2014].

— Muay Thai: the consolidation of an invented tradition as a martial art

The analysis done by Muller-Junior and Caparo is consistent with accepted historical accounts. Again, this is to point out that, there are no accepted literature/historical accounts to suggest that Bokator is the origin of Muay Thai (hence the advocacy to remove the factually inaccurate part).

203.150.167.83 (talk) 07:28, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Historical revisionism is a bit harsh as I just pointed out the phrasing of the edit. I very well understand your point and do agree, but the references you provided put on the same footing Bokator and the Siamese army as lacking of evidence hence why me questioning the phrasing of the edit.

There isn't a logical fallacy as my point was not to argue that considering that your references do not deny Bokator being a parent then it is not conclusive but rather that the phrasing of the sentence The origin of Muay Thai is subject to debate. Although some may believe that Muay Thai ultimately originated from the Khmer pre-Angkorean martial art Bokator, researchers suggest elsewise is awkward as it suggests that the ressearch invalidated the Bokator theory, which based on your answer is not your point nor it is the case for your sources. A better phrasing of your point would be While some believe Bokator or ancient Siamese armies to be parents of Muay Thai, research put forward the lack of concluding evidences towards an ancient origin of Muay Thai. The origins of the sport have been often instrumentalized to point toward an artificial Thai cultural continuity.

Again I'm not arguing that my phrasing is perfect and you are very welcome to improve it, but what I wanted to point out is that the phrasing of the edit falsely suggests that the ressearch invalidates Bokator. I hope I made myself clear this time.

Edit: After rereading your answer I feel like there has been a misunderstanding, my answer was for Urro, I wasn't questioning the wording of your request Pierrevang3 (talk) 11:38, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Hi 14.207.5.80 and Pierrevang3, thank you both for your critques. It seems my edit is too vague to satisfy this request.

I've  Undone it for now -- and the request will remain open -- so that another user who is more knowledgeable on the topic can review it and apply the appropriate changes. I apologize for hindering things. Thank you both for your patience and civility in this discussion.
— Urro^{[talk][edits]} 13:12, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

I hope it's okay for me to be off-topic, but thanks Urro for allowing this discussion to proceed and for another arbiter to step in. I appreciate you for being fair and open to a highly contentious topic. Thanks to Pierrevang3 also for contributing to the discussion. 14.207.5.80 (talk) 14:28, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Even if the attribution of Muay Thai to Bokator is not a scholarly debate as the anonymous editor seems to be indicating it is still a point of contention between Thais and Cambodians and should be mentioned. Whether a place for that is the introduction of the history section or somewhere else is another question, of course. –Turaids (talk) 16:48, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done - stale, contested request. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 01:36, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 February 2024

this is a minor edit but " The European Olympic Committees (EOC) had officially announced the inclusion of Muay Thai, or Thai-style boxing, at the 2023 European Games to be held in Krakow, Poland." should no longer be past tense as it has now occurred ! 8-) thanks Ts4ts4ever (talk) 03:38, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Muay Thai - Parenthood doesn't have the word Bokator. There is only ancient boxing.

2001:FB1:18:1C9A:75FB:E084:BEAE:22C1 (talk) 09:15, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. —k6ka 🍁 (Talk · Contributions) 14:48, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 March 2024 Muay Thai - Parenthood doesn't have the word Bokator. There is only ancient boxing.

2001:FB1:18:1C9A:75FB:E084:BEAE:22C1 (talk) 09:45, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. —k6ka 🍁 (Talk · Contributions) 14:48, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 March 2024

"change Bokator to Muaythai" JFLW (talk) 16:46, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

The "parenthood" of Muay Thai was not Bokator. There is no concrete evidence to support such claim. Please consider remove it from the summary section. STTNGJAI (talk) 19:35, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

There are three sources for that in the article. You'll need a compelling explanation as to why all of those sources are invalid. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 23:50, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

I've removed the mention from the infobox. As described in the article text and sources, this association is disputed, and is a viewpoint especially pushed by Cambodian proponents in this nationalistically fuelled debate. It does not belong in the infobox, which is ill-suited for statements that need qualification. --Paul_012 (talk) 09:03, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

That said, there's clearly a high amount of off-wiki coordinated WP:meatpuppetry going on. Someone might want to look further into these new accounts' contributions (not something I'm currently prepared to do). --Paul_012 (talk) 09:07, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Bokator origins claim (March 2024)

There has been a recent uptick in edit requests about the removal of mention to Bokator as the origin of Muay Thai in the "History" section. This is due to a number of Thai influencers on Facebook reported this phenomenon, but since the page was semi-protected, there's nothing much the editors that were "meatpuppet" can do (and even if an established editor tried to remove the unsourced claim, another editor would immediately revert it). Personally, I concur with the IP's assessment above that the three sources are weak as they failed to mention the source they used to derive the claim (and SCMP's article is pretty much a COI as it interviews individual involved in Bokator, who can give narrative of that art and claim of being the predecessor of Muay Thai as he wish). The Muller-Capraro article mentioned that the modern history of Muay Thai may have been originated in 1921, but wasn't coined as Muay Thai until at least 1928, while Bokator wasn't coined until 1938 (and its modern history grandmaster wasn't born until 1945). It should be noted that while the discussion on the etymology alone is not sufficient, there's nothing to suggest that Muay Thai is originated from Bokator (and vice versa). --Harley Hartwell (talk) 13:34, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Just adding a clarification solely on the etymology part. Bokator wasn't "coined" in 1938, otherwise it would mean that half of the Khmer vocabulary would have been coined abruptly in 1938. 1938 was the year the first dictionary of Khmer language was published. The word Bokator appears in this first dictionary.

As for Sam Kim Sean (Bokator Grandmaster) being born in 1945, I can't see how it is relevant as he is not responsible of the creation of the martial art but rather of its recent revival following the execution of most of Bokator masters during a genocide during the 1970s. Pierrevang3 (talk) 15:55, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

It may have existed in other form before 1938 (just like how Muay Thai was derived from Muay Boran until the westernized rules are introduced and evolved it into modern form). If this is the case, there should be other evidence that supports its existence well before the mention in the dictionary (which Bokator article unfortunately doesn't mention; it simply noted the mentioning in dictionary and jumped into the obscurity due to genocide. To be fair, Muay Thai also has a missing history, but having the venue to fight since 1921 means it must be there well before that). Even in the UNESCO nomination form, Cambodia mentioned that Muay Thai and Muay Laos "were developed respectively in conformity with their own environment and their interaction with nature and their history". This suggests that the two styles eventually diverge such that it's difficult to suggest Bokator as a predecessor of Muay Thai (v.v.) Harley Hartwell (talk) 16:41, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

The hypothesis of a 1938 neologism seems rather far-fetched Similarly, for it to be included in the 1938 dictionary, "it must have been there well before that"... The UNESCO states that Bokator dates back to the 1st century. It is general consensus that the UNESCO is trustworthy, given that it's a renowned international organization specialized in the cultural sector with its its bunch of experts that are working for it. Registering a cultural item to the UNESCO is a long and arduous process, which the Bokator registration have been through to be inscribed as a world intangible heritage.

But again I'm just adding clarification on the etymology part of your statement, for the rest I'd leave it to more experienced contributors to decide according to Wikipedia policies. Pierrevang3 (talk) 17:07, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

UNESCO description is not consistent with what Cambodia proposed. Cambodia itself suggested in the nomination form that Bokator dated "back to at least the Angkorian period" (which spans from 9th to 15th Century), but the resolution that recognized it stretches the period to be as far as the 1st Century (at the time, the present-day Cambodia remains under Funan). I am willing to accept Cambodia's own account than UNESCO's stretched definition as it is far more reasonable.

Though most of my point about modern history of both sports appear to be moot, my challenge to the weakness of the source used to back up the claim that "Muay Thai is originated from Bokator" still stands. The word "Some" does not appear to be back with reliable sources and may be considered weasel word that should be avoided. Nonetheless, when another editor decided to remove it, it was reverted and the person doing so pointed back to the discussion in this page. I should note that the statement was added in Special:Diff/1143894066 by an editor who made a single edit, yet it becomes contentious issue up until this day. Harley Hartwell (talk) 18:59, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Doubting UNESCO's accuracy and thorough work does not convey much good faith, surely the registration was not only made with that one nomination paper but has been through a lot of documentation. This is an international organization that is widely recognized for its expertise.

Now I was the one who reverted the edit and pointed towards the talk page because as you can see, the matter has been extensively brought up and admins did not decide to remove the sentence despite multiple requests. As you surely know, Wikipedia is based on consensus, so one-sided edit is indeed not recommended, bringing it in the talk page where the subject is already discussed would be much more in the lines of Wikipedia policies. Pierrevang3 (talk) 19:20, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

The only reasonable discussion to remove/not remove the content in question is based on the IP's comment that backed the claim with scholarly articles. Therefore, it is not "multiple request" or "extensively brought up" as it may seems (Not many people are familiar with the complex procedure on getting the edit accepted. Some editor may simply decline to do the request on procedural basis, as the people requesting it does not properly explain why the content should be removed), and the original request appears to remain intact (notwithstanding an editor supporting the retention as that editor believed that the origin of Muay Thai/Bokator is contentious among the two countries) without proper conclusion.

I'm registering my reservation here, but I will no longer pursuing the matter myself and leave the consensus-building at the discretion of the willing editors (if any). Harley Hartwell (talk) 19:46, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

I really have little interest in participating in these nationalistic hot topics, so this is going to be a one-off comment. When evaluating sources, it's important to remember that WP:context matters. So for the history of Muay Thai, weight should be given to academic sources that discuss the topic in detail. A few were mentioned higher up on this talk page, but none were previously cited in the article.

Anyway, I've now adjusted the history section to properly contextualise the historiography, based mainly on Vail's paper. I've retained a brief mention of Bokator in the context of the conflict with Cambodia, and removed the tangential sources. I believe this presents an accurate and neutral view of the topic. --Paul_012 (talk) 16:05, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 March 2024

ต้องลบอันนี้ด้วยครับ please delete kun Khmer in Cambodia, แล้วก็ and Kun Khmer's precursor Bokator to also be the progenitor of Muay Thai.[7][8] Apichai0075 (talk) 10:00, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: Please provide a reason why you want the content removed. Shadow311 (talk) 16:16, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Muay Thai's connection to Cambodia

As mentioned above, few have bemoaned the lack of academic sources backing the link between Muay Thai and Khmer martial arts, the references consisting mainly of journalistic articles. Nevertheless I've found the book "Muay Thai Boran, The Martial art of the Kings, Secret techniques" by Italian author Marco de Cesaris [4].

The book was endorsed by the royal Thai embassy of Thailand, which dedicates in the beginning of the book the following:

Dedication written by the Minister Counsellor of the Royal Thai Embassy in Italy.

Mr. Marco De Cesaris is an Italian Master, exceptionally impassioned and competent in Thai traditional martial arts. Thanks to his research, he has been able to conduct an in-depth investigation into the Thai Fighting Arts, achieving for himself a respected and well-known reputation both in Thailand and in Italy, as well as in other European and American countries. For many years, he has been an appreciated collaborator of the Royal Thai Embassy in Italy and currently also of our Thai Trade Center of Rome. By means of his books Arjarn Marco is bringing to light, in Italy and elsewhere, recognition of Muay Thai Boran, which plays a significant part in our precious cultural heritage. Without the support and efforts of Master Marco, Muay Thai Boran would not be as appreciated as it is nowadays and could even have been lost. I am sure that in this, his most recent work on Look Mai May Thai techniques, he will receive great appreciation from his readers all over the world and will provide precious information to all who believe and practice the authentic tradition of Muay, one of Thailand's precious cultural heritages.

Thanks

Mrs Suchana Chucherd

Minister Counselor Commercial

Office of Commercial Affairs

Royal Thai Embassy, Rome

The preface includes a series of acknowledgements by Muay Thai Khrus masters, namely Grand Master Yodthong Senanan Sriwaraluk, Khru Phosawat Saengsawang (Professor at Rajabat Maha Sarakham University), Grand Master Sam Tubtimtong, Grand Master Chinawooth Sirisompan (President of Khru Muay Association (KMA), Honorary President of International Muay Boran Academy (IMBA), Vice President of Association Institute of Thai Martial Arts (AITMA))

I plan to include this reference in the article, and to extract some content based on the following parts:

"One can certainly talk about technical and cultural influences that have been of some importance in the actual methods of approaching warfare and military tactics and strategies, and as a consequence bare hands or armed fighting. The ancient Indian culture has notably influenced the Thai way of life and also Indian Martial Arts have acted as a role-model for Muay techniques both directly and indirectly through other cultures which have an important role in the history of South East Asia, such as those of the Mon and, above all, the Khmer."

"Eastern Martial Arts historians are still debating the relationship between Siamese warrior traditions and Khmer fighting techniques (called "Muay Khmer" by Thai people), that according to one theory would form the origins of Muay Boran. In fact according to some, Pradal Serey or the more military style named Bokkator which developed in Ancient Cambodia from the 10th century onwards, and whose existence is demonstrated in the still visible bas-reliefs at Angkor Wat, the historic imperial ca-pital, were imported into Siam. Here, these techniques would have been processed and elaborated upon becoming the technical basis of archaic Muay."

"According to another theory, both Muay Khmer and Muay Thai have their origins in the fighting style used by the populations in northern Thailand, around the Province of Nakhon Ratchasima. The fighting style of Muay Khorat, which originated in that area, after going through numerous transformations and implementations, would be the missing link between the Cambodian and the Thai disciplines."

"The first patriarch of Muay Korat was Phra Hensamahan, he encrypted the most articulate and coherent form of the style the story of which goes back to ancestral traditions of South East Asia. It's told that the source of his style came from martial techniques developed in ancient Cambodia during the Khmer's reign: according to our studies the origin of Muay Khorat would be the mythical Martial Arts of Angkor Wat, seat of the ancient capital of the Khmer Empire, whose culture strongly influenced the inhabitants of the Khorat area."

"The names of many Siamese kings and warriors are inextricably linked to Muay Boran traditions that for centuries have been a concrete heritage of the Thai people. King Naresuan (known as the Black Prince of Siam) (fig. IV) who reigned from 1569 was held hostage from the age of nine by the Burmese. He learned from his enemies their fighting techniques that dated back to those warrior traditions of Khmer empire and was capable of using them against his very prison guards. Once he was released he personally fought in 27 different battles and survived. On January 25th, 1592 during the final battle of Burma's fifth invasion of his country, King Naresuan, whose battle position was on the top of an elephant, saw and was able to recognize (from his youth spent in prison) the King of Burma. He succeeded in killing him with his deadly Ngaaw spear. From then on this date has been celebrated as the Thai Army Day." Pierrevang3 (talk) 15:50, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 April 2024

Doplan (talk) 05:47, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk|contribs) 05:56, 16 April 2024 (UTC)