Talk:Kiryat Yam

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moved from article - perhaps needs rewording to make sense

the canidath which is lead the surrveys is Shmuel siso which was the meir before but it for a job as the israeli console in the USA.

google earth note controversy[edit]

Everywhere I look it is simply stated that a google earth user added the note about the alleged old arab village. But is it true or not?? Is it a controversy because the israelis don't like the thought of it, or is it simply not true? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.215.252.82 (talk) 15:07, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

According to Israel, the town was founded in 1945, before the State of Israel was founded, and before the arabs ran away.

According to the British-sponsored Palestine Exploration Fund (PEF) map from 1880, Arab Ghawarina is a region east of Acre populated with Arabs and there is no evidence of any civilization in the area marked by Darby. Faceman1 (talk) 11:25, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Correct, there is nothing in that map to indicate settlements in the place where Kiryat Yam was built. Another Arab locality named in this regard is Jidru. The residents of Jidru were evicted in the 1920s when the land was sold by the absentee owner. But was too far to the east (on the east side of Kiryat Bialik), and too early in time, to be related to Kiryat Yam. Zerotalk 03:54, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This article is relevant. Zerotalk 06:32, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So this bit of trivia has had its time in the sun and now we can remove it. It wasn't even an action of Google but some non-notable private user called Thameen Darby who added the false information. If we added a mention in Wikipedia about every erroneous note a user added to Google,... well this should be obvious. Zerotalk 13:28, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

cleanup[edit]

  • Is it reasonable to include that it is predicted that the small cities will merge? Is it encyclopedic to prognosticate?
  • Should this be tagged as an Israel-geo-stub?

What happened in 1945?[edit]

The article (based on a source which is dubious) says that Kiryat Yam was founded in 1945. However, the Palestine Post of May 12, 1939, has an article "Kiryat Yam - A New Haifa Suburb" which describes well-advanced construction work for "a new seaside residential suburb". After that date the suburb is mentioned regularly and I cannot locate anything special that happened in 1945. I believe more research needs to be done to get this straight. Btw, PP is readable here. Zerotalk 04:03, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This says founded in 1940, and this says founded in 1941. Zerotalk 06:35, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the interesting information. I have limited sources on the matter, but both agree that Kiryat Yam was founded as an initiative by the Gav Yam company and member of the Jewish Brigade, following World War II. My theory is that one of the other Krayot was called Kiryat Yam, although right now this is original research. I will attempt to find more sources some other time. —Ynhockey (Talk) 07:48, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The book of Glass mentions a 1946 development at Kiryat Yam built on a different land holding than the 1939-40 development p229; maybe that's it. Zerotalk 08:52, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Can Gav Yam be the the same as Bayside Land Corporation? I'm sure it was the BLC that did the development since for years the Pal. Post was full of advertisements from the BLC for houses and apartments in Kiryat Yam. Zerotalk 08:30, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
To answer my own question, yes, they are the same. Do we need to verify they were called Gav Yam in 1940 before we can call them Gav Yam in the article? Zerotalk 08:36, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
We can call them the Bayside Land Corporation, if that is the official English name. I was not aware that they had an English name. —Ynhockey (Talk) 18:45, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Old history[edit]

The sources should explicitly mention Kiryat yam as the sources predate the city we cannot it tie it without violation WP:OR --Shrike (talk) 13:20, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

user:Shrike: when sources give the location (ie grid no.); AFAIK; we do not need the modern name. And the location is in clearly present Kiryat Yam, cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:50, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sources don't have to use the precise words, provided that they reliably indicate the subject. In this case, however, I believe that the information needs more study. The location of the former town of Jedru is either within the boundaries of Kiryat Bialik or the boundaries of Kfar Bialik. Its Hebrew name is Horbat Gedora, location 1589/2475 (source:Dauphin, p.665). The village lands of Jedru, at least in the 1930s, extended from the village all the way to the coast. Zerotalk 05:05, 6 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Even if it was true the sources doesn't connect between the two localities so it will be WP:UNDUE and WP:OR to connect them Shrike (talk) 05:46, 6 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Maps are sources. In the absence of a policy about use of maps, we should judge their reliability in the same way as we judge other written sources. This is what the essay WP:MAPCITE argues. Zerotalk 09:16, 6 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm; I wonder if this should not be an article on its own? There certainly are enough sources. And then we could do as with the -48 villages which were split into several settlements: link from each of them. Btw, Grootkerk calls it "Horbat Gedora", We need to establish exactly how much/where the land "Jidru" of the Sursuch purchase was Huldra (talk) 00:00, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Khirbat Jidru was renamed as Horbat Gedora in 1957. There should definitely be an article. Anyway is incorrect to redirect it here. Zerotalk 01:18, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

History, Jidru:[edit]

The village was known in the Roman era, from a Latin inscription honouring Nero.[1]

Ceramics from the Byzantine era have been found here.[2]

In 1283 Jidru was still part of the Crusader states, as it was mentioned as part of their domain in the hudna between the Crusaders based in Acre and the Mamluk sultan Qalawun.[3]

Ottoman era[edit]

During the Ottoman era there was here a Muslim village called Jidru (or Jedru).[4] It was mentioned in the 16th century Ottoman Tax records.[5]

In 1875 Victor Guérin noted: "At seven fifteen minutes, I arrive at Bir Djedrou. This village, recently raised from its ruins, is supplied with water by a well which one descends by a few steps, and which is covered by a small square construction surmounted by a dome. The stones that were used for this building seem ancient."[6]

A population list from about 1887 showed that Jidru had about 60 inhabitants; all Muslims.[7]

Palestine mandate era[edit]

In the 1922 census of Palestine, conducted by the British Mandate authorities, Jedru had 173 inhabitants, all Muslims.[8]

References[edit]

  1. ^ Tsafrir et al, 1994, p. 131
  2. ^ Dauphin, 1998, p. 665
  3. ^ The al-Qalqashandi version of the hudna, referred in Khamisy, 2013, p. 94, #29, grid: 159/247
  4. ^ Palmer, 1881, p. 110
  5. ^ Jidru, grid: 158/247; Rhode, 1979, p. 82
  6. ^ "A sept heures quinze minutes, j'arrive à Bir Djedrou. Ce village, relevé depuis peu de ses ruines, est alimenté d'eau par un puits où l'on descend par quelques marches, et que recouvre une petite construction carrée surmontée d'une coupole. Les pierres qui ont servi à cette bâtisse paraissent antiques." Guérin, 1880, p. 409
  7. ^ Schumacher, 1888, p. 175
  8. ^ Barron, 1923, Table XI, Sub-district of Haifa, p. 33

Bibliography[edit]

  • Barron, J.B., ed. (1923). Palestine: Report and General Abstracts of the Census of 1922. Government of Palestine.
  • Dauphin, Claudine (1998). La Palestine byzantine, Peuplement et Populations. BAR International Series 726 (in French). Vol. III : Catalogue. Oxford: Archeopress. ISBN 0860549054.
  • Grootkerk, Salomon E. (2000). Ancient sites in Galilee: a toponymic gazetteer (Illustrated ed.). BRILL. ISBN 978-90-04-11535-4. (p. 154)
  • Guérin, V. (1880). Description Géographique Historique et Archéologique de la Palestine (in French). Vol. 3: Galilee, pt. 1. Paris: L'Imprimerie Nationale.
  • Khamisy, Rabei G. (2014). "The Treaty of 1283 between Sultan Qalāwūn and the Frankish Authorities of Acre: A New Topographical Discussion". Israel Exploration Journal. 64, 1: 72–102.
  • Palmer, E.H. (1881). The Survey of Western Palestine: Arabic and English Name Lists Collected During the Survey by Lieutenants Conder and Kitchener, R. E. Transliterated and Explained by E.H. Palmer. Committee of the Palestine Exploration Fund.
  • Rhode, H. (1979). Administration and Population of the Sancak of Safed in the Sixteenth Century (PhD). Columbia University.
  • Schumacher, G. (1888). "Population list of the Liwa of Akka". Quarterly statement - Palestine Exploration Fund. 20: 169–191.
  • Tsafrir, Y.; Leah Di Segni; Judith Green (1994). (TIR): Tabula Imperii Romani: Judaea, Palaestina. Jerusalem: Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities. ISBN 965-208-107-8.
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