Talk:Paradesi Synagogue

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{the KAdavumbhagam synagogue, currently in ruins, is the oldest synagogue. Its synagogue inscription, currently posted on the Paradesi inner compound wall, is dated 1344.}

Problematic phrases[edit]

  1. "Around a century before Jews formed a prosperous trading community of Kerala, and they controlled a major portion of world wide spice trade." Around a century before what? -- Jmabel | Talk 06:27, May 5, 2005 (UTC) [references?!]
  2. "Old testament Jews"? Which 4th century is intended? Uppland 17:05, 6 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • I removed the phrase; it was clearly wrong, whatever was intended, and just wrote "Jews".
    • (Good idea. There is no such thing as an "old" testament in Judaism, anyway. Dori1951 (talk) 14:30, 7 September 2022 (UTC))[reply]
  3. "The original synagogue was built in the 4th century in Kodungallur (Cranganore) when the Jews had a mercantile role in the South Indian region along the Malabar coast now called Kerala. It was later moved to Kochi from Kodungaloor."
    • Is 4th century correct? {no! the earliest evidence for Jewish presence in Kerala is in the Kollam copper plates. They earliest evidence for Jewish settlement is a tombstone dated 1269 in Chendamangalam of a woman called Sarah Bat Israel.} In what sense was the Cranganore synagogue "original"? What exactly was "moved"? And which is more correct, "Kodungaloor" or "Kodungallur", they are clearly two transliterations of the same name. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:30, May 7, 2005 (UTC) {there is no evidence for a synagogue ever existing in Kodungallur, except for legends and myths.}
  • It is nice that an edit which I had started is receiving attention - thanks for all corrections and further edits. Sure, wikipedians make the experience great.--Bhadani 03:11, 7 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • So do you know any of the answers? -- Jmabel | Talk 05:52, May 7, 2005 (UTC)
    • Some of this has been slighty cleared up in the article, but most of it is still a mess, including any clarification as to what was "moved" from Kodungallur to Kochi. I gather (mostly from talk, below) that there was first a synagogue at Kodungallur, then one at Kochi (which was destroyed by the Portuguese {that is also unsupported by any evidence - moreover, the date of construction in 1568 is during the Portuguese period!}), then the present Paradesi Synagogue at Kochi, but the article is blurry on that, and I don't have the facts clear enough to venture the rewrite. Also, how did the Inquisition come to destroy a synagogue? I thought they had authority only over those who had converted to Christianity. They would not normally have had authority over openly practising Jews in a place where Judaism was legal. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:33, May 8, 2005 (UTC)

Malabar Yehudan people and Kodungallur[edit]

The first settlement of Jews in Kerala was in Kodungallur. After a flood that destroyed this thriving port in 1340s the Jews and Nasranis (who were largely traders) moved further south to the districts of Kottayam and present day Kochi, India and Ernakulam. In olden days this region was called as Travancore and Kingdom of Cochin. I did not write about the 4th century bit so I do not know what it is meant to refer to. Though it is the time when the Knanaya jewish christians settled in Kerala. However I do not know what role the 4th century has to do with the "paradesi synagogue".

addendum: according to the cochin jewish tradition the copper plates of privileges given to Joseph Rabban was in the year 375 A.D. which is the 4 th century A.D. Probably they came together with the Knanaya people. {this Wikipedia entry doesn't mae any sense! no references to established scholarship whatsoever! Better remove it!}

The Kodungallur region had the oldest known synagogue in Asia outside Israel, built over 2000 years ago, remnants of which still remains. It was to refer to this that I used the term Old testament Jews. Because they came to South India as merchant outposts to trade timber for the temple of King Solomon of the Old Testament. when the Jews moved out of Kodungallur (known as cranganore during the British rule of the Indian subcontinent) they made a synagogue in Kochi. It is for this reason that the more appropriate term used by the Cochin jews themselves is Malabar Yehudan or Malabari Juden, because they first settled in Kodungallur and the moved to Cochin. All the cities and towns that the Jews in Kerala lived are in the Malabar coast within Kerala and so the term Malabar Yehudan.

The first synagogue made by the malabari Jews in Cochin was destroyed in the portuguese inquisition of the Malabari Jews and Nasrani people of Kerala. The second synagogue built under the protection of the King of Kochi along with Dutch patronage is the one people call as the Paradesi Synagogue. In fact it is called Paradesi synagogue because it was made with Dutch patronage. Besides under the Dutch, kerala was a dutch province, and thus the name paradesi synagogue or "foreign synagogue".

There are lots of transliteration for Kodungallur - Kodungallor, Kodungallur, Kodungaloor etc. Kodungallur seems to be the most widely used with 7050 hits in the google. while the other are only few hundred hits. Robin klein 05:33, 8 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

History[edit]

This line in the history section has been removed probably in the absence of any reference: "In 1968, the 400th anniversary of the synagogue was celebrated in a ceremony attended by Indira Gandhi, the Indian Prime Minister." However, I find a reference to this effect in the following link: http://asianjewishlife.org/pages/articles/AJL_Issue_8/AJL_Feature_Parur-Synagogue_Cochin.html This links states that " In 1968, Indira Gandhi attended its quarter-centenary celebrations and the Indian government issued a special commemorative stamp on the occasion." I am apprehensive that "quarter-centenary celebrations" is a mistake and it is telling about celebrations after 400 years of its establishment. --Bhadani (talk) 02:28, 31 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There is another reference from a book named "Jewish Communities in Exotic places" which attributes a statement to Indira Gandhi and contains the words "in Cochin". Obviously, she must have made the statement during the celebrations after 400 years of establishment of Paradesi Synagogue. --Bhadani (talk) 02:34, 31 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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