Talk:Torah im Derech Eretz

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I dont know how to change it, but the picture "personification of virtue" says Derech "im" Eretz.

Why has this section been separated from the section on Samson Rapahel Hirsch and Modern Orthodoxy? That forces us to have the same discussion three times! JFW, you correctly noted that there was some repeated material, which you removed. The reason for the repetition was because the same core topic was repeated. As far as I can tell, it makes no sense to have this article. The subject of what Hirsch meant by Torah im Derech Eretz, and how Modern Orthodox Judaism views it today, should be discussed in their respective articles, in their historical context. Separated like this we only get confusion. I vote for merger of this content with the other two articles, and turn this article into either a redirect or disambiguation page. RK 14:03, Aug 8, 2004 (UTC)

Torah im Derech Eretz is more than just SR Hirsch's brainchild. As a philosophy, it can be identified in the writings of the Maharal and other thinkers.
I removed your addition because it was a hasty cut-and-paste (even the image markup came along), without any changes to remove superfluous information.
The real reason I initially wrote this article was to prevent its colonisation as a purely Modern Orthodox phenomenon. There are thousands of Haredim who adhere to Torah im Derech Eretz as an educational philosophy.
If you feel that this article is superfluous, I will agree to a redirect that leads to the article on Hirsch. Anything else would be unacceptable. JFW | T@lk 21:01, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I propose changing the paragraph "The view of Samson Raphael Hirsch" to "Knowledge of culture and society". I think then it will better fit in with the preceding: "Knowledge of the natural world" - also this will allow for other opinions to be discussed here. Hope that's all-right? Fintor 13:38, 29 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This will also entail a slight rewording.. Fintor 14:30, 29 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Added Torah_im_Derech_Eretz#Appropriate_behaviour_and_good_character as:

  1. derech eretz redirects here and this is one (if not the major) meaning of the phrase;
  2. Rav Hirsch emphasised both aspects of derech eretz.

Fintor 13:37, 5 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Plan to address this comment from User:SlimVirgin -

<  !--This article often lacks citations for the quotes.-- >

- by inserting links of this type [1] where necessary...

please comment if there are objections :)

Fintor 07:55, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

How about Wikipedia:Footnote3? JFW | T@lk 12:13, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
am beginning the task now... :) will proceed over the next few days Fintor 07:35, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hirsch references[edit]

Fintor, when linking to Hirsch' writings are you referring to the English translation or to the Gesammelte Schriften published by his son Naftali in the early 20th Century? JFW | T@lk 13:12, 13 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

These quotes are - in fact - from the German Gesammelte Schriften, which I have, in turn, seen quoted (in English Translation) in the introductory essays in the recent Feldheim translation. Fintor 14:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Anon edits[edit]

An anon is changing "Although usually associated with Modern Orthodox Judaism, the philosophy is also important in Haredi communities" to "The philosophy is important in Haredi communities and sometimes associated with Modern Orthodox Judaism." I'm reverting, but someone more knowledgeable should check the edits. SlimVirgin (talk) 04:27, 27 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You are correct. JFW | T@lk 07:33, 27 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, JFW. SlimVirgin (talk) 09:08, 27 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Elias[edit]

Elias's has a program of harmonizng Hirsch with Rav Dessler. His edition of the 19th letters is about half the size of the original and he takes out anything he does not like - references to Schiller and put downs of kabbalah and Eastern European rabbis. See the book review by Rav Danzinger of the Breuer's community in JO where he takes issues with the outright distorian of the edition and introduction. If you want to re-introce Elias it should be as his own section and interpretation. An original 1899 edition of the 19 letters is available online via google books. Please do not undo the article based on the intro.--Jayrav 13:25, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You are entitled to your own opinions. However, Elias is a quoted source and a well-known scholar on Hirsch. Per Wikipedia standards, you must find sources for counter opinions if you'd like them in the article. Any personal accusation you may have concerning Elias is just that- personal and unsourced. True, Shlomo Danziger is also a well known scholar on Hirsch, and in that article in JO he does take issue with Elias on two counts- Hirsch's view of Kabbalah, and the inclusion in the notes of the Torah only school of thought. He does NOT however, take issue with the entire intro and edition and nowhere does he mention Schiller. Please adhere to the rules of Wikipedia and provide sources. 38.117.213.19 (talk)

There are various other sources that have definitely speculated on Kantian, Hegelian and Schillerian influences on Hirsch. That is not to say that these sources are notable, and neither is there any evidence from Hirsch' own work. I think 38.117 is correct that we cannot continue to make these connections without backing them up.

Hirsch, like Maimonides (I'm not sure if he would have been pleased with the parallel), means different things to different people. To the secularists, he is the one who sought harmony with the outside world but remained a reactionary. To the Modern Orthodox, he is one of the "moderates" who does not believe in exclusion from the secular world. To the Haredim, he is the one who defended the faith against Reform and the Wissenschafters. It is imperative that we remain neutral in representing all those views. It is true that Elias wipes the floor with Noah Rosenbloom in his commentary on the Neunzehn Briefe, but that does not mean that Rosenbloom can therefore not be quoted as a legitimate opinion. The reader will be left to draw his own conclusions.

I'm rather bogged down with other work at the moment, but I think this article needs some more work to remain neutral, well-sourced and verifiable. JFW | T@lk 19:05, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article uses the words "in fact" a lot. A careful editor would probably remove some of them in progress toward NPOV. —Anomalocaris (talk) 09:51, 3 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Structure[edit]

I have changed the section "Background" to "Derech Eretz", as I think this heading is more accurate. I have also partially reverted: the section on Rav Hirsch's philosophy is now its own. I think that this is appropriate, as it refelects the fact that TIDE is a derech of its own. Hope that's OK. Fintor (talk) 08:35, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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