Talk:List of accidents and incidents involving commercial aircraft

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Table?

This would be easier to extract information if it was a sortable table. Tom Ruen (talk) 22:23, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

What do you mean by sortable table; could you elaborate a little? [ Dinosaurs are cool 03:40, 5 January 2019 (UTC) ] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dinosaur330 (talk • contribs)

I think like the one here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_populationSqueakSquawk4 (talk) 20:22, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

I too want a table for easy sorting. Any objections?SqueakSquawk4 (talk) 20:22, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion

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• 2019 Saha Airlines Boeing 707 crash 03.jpg

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Bold face

There is no need for every link in the article to be in bold face. MOS:BOLD describes the cases where bold face should be used. None of them apply here. It has no obvious significance and it looks horrendously ugly. So, I removed it all. 80.189.156.156 (talk) 20:55, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, no, it's been replaced. The significance is that in each sentence, the main target article is in bold, just like the Main Page. Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:04, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Separate Article

I think this article should be separated by year like this. -- Si Gam (talk) 01:32, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

What would be your reasoning for that? Is it because this article is getting unfeasibly long these days? There might be an argument for separating by decade, that would at least break it into about ten separate subarticles. Rodney Baggins (talk) 15:20, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Joy, 10 or more subarticles for me to put on watchlist so as to revert entries of accidents without articles....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 15:50, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

List of accidents and incidents on commerical airliners grouped by year listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect List of accidents and incidents on commerical airliners grouped by year. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Colonies Chris (talk) 18:57, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Explicit inclusion criteria

It's not obvious to all users that the page Wikipedia:List of accidents and incidents on commercial aircraft/Guideline for inclusion criteria and format exists. There is a link to this page above the edit box when editing with a conventional computer, but mobile edits don't see this notice. The MOS suggests adding direct statements about list criteria in the lede (WP:SALLEAD), and so I have proposed changing the lede to This list of accidents and incidents involving commercial aircraft includes relevant events that have a corresponding Wikipedia article, and conform to the inclusion criteria. The list is grouped by the year in which the accident or incident occurred.. But now I seem to be finding myself in an edit war. I think a summary of the inclusion criteria in the lede would reduce ineligible entries, and help to communicate that this list is not all-inclusive of every aviation mishap. Hadron137 (talk) 18:25, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

Does anybody have a justifiable reason to support or oppose the inclusion of a link to the list criteria page in the lede, as stated above? Hadron137 (talk) 05:32, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

@WilliamJE: I've asked twice that you please discuss this matter. I'm going to go ahead and make the change I've described above, following the guidance in WP:DISCUSSFAIL. If you revert without responding here, then I'm going to have to file a complaint against you at ANI for disruptive editing by reverting without discussing.— Hadron137 (talk) 02:26, 25 August 2019 (UTC).

Oppose per MOS:LINKSTYLE, Do not create links to user, WikiProject, essay or draft pages in articles, except in articles about Wikipedia itself. — BillHPike (talk, contribs) 10:17, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughts, BillHPike. Do you know of a better way for an editor on a mobile device (cell phone, tablet) to know this page's inclusion criteria? These editors never see an edit box or the notice above this article's edit box. Hadron137 (talk) 02:43, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Oppose List criteria aren't explained in the lede part of articles....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 14:40, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

@WilliamJE Please read WP:SALLEAD. It states A stand-alone list should begin with a lead section that summarizes its content and ... makes direct statements about the list criteria... Hadron137 (talk) 01:33, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

It seems that the point of contention is the use of a wikilink to the project page. I have updated the lede with inclusion criteria, but omitted this link. Hadron137 (talk) 02:54, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

For about the fifth time, you have no consensus for this. What you're doing isn't done around here....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 22:33, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply, WilliamJE, but I disagree. What I'm doing is supported by WP:SALLEAD and MOS:BOLDAVOID. Adding inclusion criteria to the lede is very common on many Wikipedia lists. Including this information will communicate to readers that this list isn't alll- inclusive of every aviation mishap. And it will likely reduce the number of ineligible entries submitted - especially by users of mobile devices, who cannot see the notice above the edit box. Hadron137 (talk) 01:26, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

RfC inclusion criteria

There is a clear consensus that the inclusion criteria should be defined in the article's lead and that it should not be dependent on projectspace for context.

Cunard (talk) 00:04, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This list has its inclusion criteria in a separate project page. For editors using conventional computers, a notice appears above the edit box with a link to the project page. But for mobile editors, there is no edit box, so they never see this notice. How should the inclusion criteria be referenced in a way that is accessable to all readers, and editors who are using mobile devices? Hadron137 (talk) 02:13, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Could comments not be used at the top of each year (so users editing a section see them) using <!-- -->, or placed where a commonly misinserted item would be inserted, with something like - <!-- Please don't incert incident A - see WP:ADL --> ~~ OxonAlex - talk 06:58, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

The criteria are more than just having a WP article. Aircraft size and that it is a commercial flight are also criteria. Notable people sections (of town or city articles) have <!-- --> at the top but editors routinely ignore them, don't read it etc....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 09:51, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Summoned by bot. Yes, the inclusion criteria should definitely be explained in the lead. No article should be dependent on projectspace for context. No problem with the stylistic instructions there, or for an edit notice to emphasize certain practical elements (e.g. it has an article), but the context to understand what's in the article should be in the article. It's not like there's a big lead here already. If it takes a couple paragraphs to explain (preferably with an explanation of why), that seems ok to me. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 13:11, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Summoned by bot. I agree with what Rhododendrites said, and can't improve on how they said it. Thryduulf (talk) 09:49, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks everybody for the feedback. I have (for the fifth time) added the inclusion criteria to the lede. I think we have consensus from this discussion and from WP:SALLEAD that the inclusion criteria should indeed be in the lead. Hadron137 (talk) 21:39, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Your close is improper per WP:RFCCLOSE. You're an involved editor....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 22:51, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks WilliamJE. I have restored the RfC tag. Hadron137 (talk) 03:39, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

• (Invited by the bot) I agree with Rhododendrites & Thryduulf including Rhododendrites's comments. I would add that projects don't own articles and can only influence, not dictate anything regarding articles. North8000 (talk) 12:33, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The rules in this list is mismatched with the Portuguese list

If you have a look of the Portuguese list, you will notice that the rules are different and this can cause confusion, I think this is terrible for Wikipedia since the lists are translation but conceptually different and if so, must be renamed. Please have a look: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lista_de_acidentes_aéreos

...William Could you please have a look? I don't think it makes sense.

 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pp.amorim (talk • contribs) 20:55, 8 November 2021 (UTC) 

The rules here are quite clear. A aircraft must be able to seat 10 to be included on this list. You know something? The criteria, which have been in place over a decade, weren't even drawn up by me. Save your time for something else....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 21:06, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Enjoy your list. Pp.amorim (talk • contribs) 20:55, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Portuguese Wikipedia and English Wikipedia operate independtly from each other. There is zero need for the Portuguese and English lists to have the same criteria. SSSB (talk) 10:30, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

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• Wreckage of the ill-fated Dana Flight 992 on the 3rd of June 2012.jpg

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inclusion criteria

While the requirement for modern accidents to have their own standalone article makes sense due to the media intense environment that surrounded those incidents, this doesn't make any sense whatsoever for accidents prior to WW2, where the amount of detail, both for the aircraft itself (to justify splitting the page), and the media coverage available is significantly less, and isn't in the least way indicative of the significance of the accident. That has given this page an enormous bias toward modern accidents, belying the reality that 95% of all the significant accidents are missing, being deliberately excluded from here, but only because they fail to meet an incredibly pointless and artificial threshold. Perhaps for older aircraft it should be possible to link to a section of a page devoted to said accident? Alternatively, we split this page at 1945, and have less onerous criteria for incidents prior to then. Indeed, looking through most of the earlier accidents - most of those pages are barely even stubs, and should never have been made into separate articles, especially given the small size of almost all of the parent pages. - NiD.29 (talk) 17:05, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

What changes to the inclusion criteria do you propose? More specifically, you write that ...the media coverage available [for these accidents] is significantly less, and isn't in the least way indicative of the significance of the accident.. In the absence of media coverage, how do you propose to gauge the significance of such an accident? (For what it's worth, media coverage often exists, it's just harder to find on the Internet without access to academic databases.) Lastly, perhaps Wikipedia talk:List of accidents and incidents on commercial aircraft/Guideline for inclusion criteria and format would be a better forum for discussion of this topic. Cheers. Carguychris (talk) 13:57, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Trust that the discussion isn't even on the page it applies to - thank you for the link.

Your unnecessarily condescending reply that completely ignored what I wrote suggests a lack of reading comprehension. I already made suggestions as to what to do, above, and I also did NOT say there was no media coverage, or that there wasn't enough to determine significance, or that I had difficulty in finding it, but rather that there isn't enough to justify more than a paragraph, and thus an entire stand alone page for the accident, and yes, I do know where to look. Massive difference.

As I said, in many cases, there isn't sufficient detail for both the accident and the aircraft type to justify a stand-alone page, least of all for aircraft whose entire entry won't EVER be much longer than a stub (and I know because I have expanded or written dozens of such pages), regardless of the actual importance of the event. You can see this in almost every accident listed prior to the 1930s - the accident should never have been split on any of them, except perhaps of the Fokker F.VII losing its wings. - NiD.29 (talk) 07:40, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Raleigh-Durham Airport CASA C-212 fatal incident

This one seems to be missing. I would add it, with a source citation, but the article meta editing text says not to do it without a full blown Wiki article in place. "Raleigh-Durham International Airport and the pilot of a stricken CASA C-212 twin-engine turboprop light cargo plane involved in a fatal incident on July 29" Cheers. N2e (talk) 13:42, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

TLDR - parse out and reduce length suggestions

We have articles which will pare down this "too-long" listing. See List of aircraft hijackings and List of airliner shootdown incidents. Every “incident” need not include the hijackings or war-time events. Hat-notes can direct the readers to the pertinent lists. – S. Rich (talk) 18:56, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

I have added more crashes to 2023

There are more than a few more plane crashes in 2023 that yall have missed, so I am adding them. The entries are based on Category:Aviation accidents and incidents in 2023. 113.210.92.159 (talk) 14:29, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Past tense needed for past events

This article is full of present tense statements, as if these accidents and incidents are ongoing. MOS:TENSE says, "Generally, use past tense only for past events..." Present tense is generally favored in articles (e.g., "Obama and Trump are former US presidents," not "Obama and Trump were US presidents"), but not when describing events that have already happened. In the case of air crash articles, they are always in the past. (We don't learn about them until they've happened. If they haven't happened, we don't know that they will happen, so it's a WP:Crystal ball issue.) This article needs a bit of fixing. I've done 2022-present. Dcs002 (talk) 01:05, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

2024 had a mix of items in past and present tense, but the farther back I look, the more uniform the present tense becomes. Why is that? Historical events are in the past, not the present, and writing about them in the present tense affects readability and goes against the MOS. Am I missing something? I know some history buffs like to write in the present tense about battles and such, and that's fine, but we have a standardized Manual of Style here. I've changed 2022-now, and I'm going to pause here. If someone can justify this deviation from the MOS, I'll revert my own tense edits. Dcs002 (talk) 01:36, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Dhc-8 and Cessna 172 mid air collision in Kenya

add 2001:B07:A3B:23C1:B4AC:DB68:316D:43CB (talk) 14:36, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Add 727 safe air crash in South Sudan

https://avherald.com/h?article=516d7275&opt=1

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/378591 SignorPignolini (talk) 18:36, 31 March 2024 (UTC)