Talk:Kurds

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 April 2024

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Kurds are not Iranic people. There is a very significant misleading and misinformation on the identity of the Kurdish people. Please re-consider your resources and edit them properly. Mehtap Leyla Turanalp Uysal (talk) 19:35, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

•  Not done Malformed request without sources. Duplicates discussion above. Discuss with reliable sources in the above section and gain WP:CONSENSUS for change. Currently the consensus of reliable sources does not support this change.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Map

@Lionel Cristiano, I want to let you know that the WP:BURDEN is on you to provide the sources for the map on Wikimedia Commons. See WP:OR and WP:RS. It is clear that the map doesn't reflect what is on this article. Please self-revert and start a discussion on this talk page per WP:BRD instead of restoring your unsourced insertion. Thank you. Aintabli (talk) 14:37, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Hello @Aintabli, there is map diaspora in all races. I made the map based on the resources here. If u think it's wrong, I can edit it again, but it would be wrong to delete the map completely. Lionel Cristiano^? 14:50, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

@Lionel Cristiano

• there is map diaspora in all races.

Frankly, that doesn’t justify adding an unsourced map cross-wiki which disrupts the core verifiability policy of Wikipedia.

• I made the map based on the resources here.

The content on an article can change, and when it comes to such a map, it is imperative to be clear about the sources, which should not be difficult to find. On the other hand, I am repeating myself but the map doesn’t reflect the article fully.

• If u think it's wrong, I can edit it again

My opinions are irrelevant other than it being totally unsourced.

• it would be wrong to delete the map completely

Sorry, but it is not constructive to restore a contested addition. Think as if I added an unsourced statement and reverted your justified revert. It would be disruptive for me to force my favored revision which was contested. Please self-revert per WP:BRD. You can later specify the sources and adjust the map accordingly. Then, feel free to present the new version of the map here. Thank you, Aintabli (talk) 15:05, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I deleted the map. Lionel Cristiano^? 15:08, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. Aintabli (talk) 15:11, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Origins of Kurds are contested, not Iranic ethnic group WP:NPOV=

Thank you @Austronesier: for directing me to that former discussion. I read the discussion and agree with @S Marshall: the discussion was inconclusive. The solution is not to make up a term and add it to the article lead. The academic consensus is that the origin of Kurds is contested. See this Limbert, J. (1968). The origins and appearance of the Kurds in pre‐Islamic Iran. Iranian Studies, 1(2), 41-51.. See the sources from many different centuries along with more recent works I have cited below. First, adding the word Iranic ethnic group violates Wikipedia:Neutral point of view because it favors one perspective. Second, an argument based on WP:WEIGHT doesn't apply because the number of sources not mentioning Iranian origin or saying something against it are in majority as you can see below. Third, none of the three references listed in the article mentioned the term Iranic ethnic group. There is a confusion between the notion of Kurdish belonging to Iranian languages with the origins of its people. Scholars who made this classification clearly warned about its caveats for example the peer reviewed article by Liumbert that quotes Vladimir Minorsky saying The classification of the Kurds among the Iranian nations is based mainly on linguistic and historical data and does not prejudice the fact there is a complexity of ethnical elements incorporated in them. Historically several theories have been around. Greeks and Europeans associated Kurds with Kardu, and we see such claims in works of scholars and missionaries visiting the region. Here you see McDowall speculates: Perhaps the Kardu... were really Medes, as Kurds themselves like to think, a distinct mountain tribal people of Indo-Aryan origin. He is not alone in this and many other scholars have the same view. I can numerous resources spanning centuries for this view. None of the sources mention Iranian or Iranic origins. Second, many associated the origin of Kurds to Arabs. This was the dominant view before the 20th century. You can see this view in this works of many Arab, Kurdish and Persian scholars and more from the region. Perhaps the oldest grepresentative of this view is Al-Masudi that in his The Meadows of Gold wrote that the origin of Kurds is contested. They were Aarbs and became mixed with Ajams (non-Arabs, e.g., Persians) and hence their different language. The original text is in Arabic and I can share it with you (can't post the URL here. Not allowed). This account has been shared by many other scholars including Waqyenegar, who is Kurdish and wrote Baday-ul-Lughat a Kurdish Persian dictionary. There are many other sources I can list if needed. Third, some Persian sources inspired by Persian mythology of Shahnameh and a story it tells about the origin of Kurds (people who survived the tyranny of the mythological king Zahhak the snake shoulder). Finally, Kurds themselves are very heterogeneous and some only speak Kurdish and have other origins such as Armenian etc. Please read KURDISH SOCIETY: HETEROGENEITY, STRATIFICATION, MINORITIES part of the article, which says "They were kurdophone and called themselves Kurds without attempting to hide their Armenian origins." There are many other sources like these: Hennerbichler, F. (2012). The origin of Kurds. Advances in Anthropology, 2(02), 64. The Kurds: An Encyclopedia of Life, Culture, and Society. Edited by Sebastian Maisel. Santa Barbara These are the some of the major perspectives, but there are more. So I don't see why such big claim should be made in the beginning of the article favoring one perspective, while it is not supported by most academic sources. Pirehelo (talk) 18:13, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

@Austronesier: in case it didn't work first time. 18:14, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Less than 24 hrs ago you wrote in the edit summary: Kurdish is an Iranian language but there is no such thing as Iranic ethnic group (emphasis added). Now you say it is a matter that favors one perspective, only to deny again in the following sentence that "Iranic" can be an appropriate qualifier for an ethnic group. This is confusing.

You see, "Iranic ethnic group" was a compromise; the earlier version read "Iranian ethnic group". A compromise to appease persistent whining about Kurds not being "from Iran", since for many, this is apparently the only reading of "Iranian ethnic group", even when one click on the blue text elucidates (to those who actually care) what "Iranian ethnic group" actually means (= one of the "Iranian peoples"). The terms "Iranian peoples" and "Iranic peoples" are firmly established in the literature, and a search in academic repositories and lesser sites like Google Scholar will inform you that the phrases "Iranic ethnic group" and "Iranian ethnic group" are not unheard of. I reverted the removal of the text not only because of the existing non-consensus to delete "Iranic/Iranian" as descriptor from "ethnic grouip", but also because of the counterfactual statement "there is no such thing as Iranic ethnic group".

Don't get me wrong, I myself have opined multiple times that "Iranic/Iranian ethnic group" is not a good characterization for the Kurds in the opening sentence. But many editors disagree (and some certainly for reasons that are just as valid as mine). And I don't support changes that may result in a version that might align better with what I would like to see, but at the same time are argued on erroneous premises. –Austronesier (talk) 19:24, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

@Austronesier:I reiterated that there is no such thing as Iranic ethnic group. Could you please provide a few reliable references by researchers in Kurdish studies for it (Not 2024 articles copying English Wikipedia!)? Iranian languages do exist and Kurdish belong to them. Those who think Kurds are an Iranian ethnicity support their claim based on linguistics reasoning, and I just quoted Vladimir Minorsky, who belongs to this group, that literally warns about the limitations of such statement. Also again none of the three provided references support such thing. If something is so disputed why should it be in the lead? At least add a line saying this is contested with some being of such opinion not reverting my edits fully. Pirehelo (talk) 20:40, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

First an attempt at claiming Nowruz and its influences across the world as "Kurdish" and now this. The citations you asked for are already in the thread you were advised to read, including responses to the arguments you are making. HistoryofIran (talk) 20:56, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran:I am asking for where in the sources the term Iranic ethnic group is mentioned. It's a madeup word? If you think otherwise, please add them as footnotes. 21:15, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

"Iranic" is a synonym for "Iranian", one simple Google eboks search would show you that it is indeed used in literature. HistoryofIran (talk) 12:42, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Or better, try "Kurds are an Iranian ethnic group" in Google Scholar. –Austronesier (talk) 13:42, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: My bold change (NB without consensus) from "Iranian" to "Iranic" is apparently contested now. Should we return to "Iranian ethnic group"? In some WP:BATTLEGROUND areas, appeasement is useless... –Austronesier (talk) 13:46, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't mind either spelling. But I guess "Iranic" is still good for now? Imo articles (including its talk page) like these should have a harsher protection template, eg at least 1000-2000 edits to be able to edit it. HistoryofIran (talk) 17:34, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

@Austronesier: Iranic ethnic is mimicking the word Turkic that is for example used in Turkic languages (to avoid confusion with being Turkish). Iranian refers to the national state of Iran. Most Kurds live out of Iran. And as I said the term Iranic ethnic group is a fake word. So, it should be removed from the lead. Or if a statement is to be made, it should mention the diverse set of perspectives in this regard not just one. Pirehelo (talk) 23:55, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Iranian refers to the national state of Iran. ← This is wrong and clearly shows that you don't care to read the preceding discussions (WP:IDHT). At least read the closing hatnote that I added to an earlier time sink. –Austronesier (talk) 09:38, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

What you shared doesn't address the issue raised by scholars I mentioned above. Using this madeup word - Iranic- is clearly taking side and ignoring the majority of scholarly literature. If you include this side of the story why not the other side? Pirehelo (talk) 21:02, 30 April 2024 (UTC)