Talk:City College of New York

Edit request

Can someone change the following text in the North Campus section:

• There were five original neo-Gothic buildings on the upper Manhattan campus, which opened in 1906.

to the following:

• There were five original neo-Gothic buildings on the upper Manhattan campus, which opened between 1906 and 1908: Shepard Hall, Baskerville Hall, Compton Hall, Harris Hall, and Wingate Hall.

References

User:Melchior2006 removed these as being unreferenced, but I'm providing a reference for these buildings. (Additionally, there actually are references for each building further down.)

Thank you in advance. – Epicgenius (talk) 20:46, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

done. --Melchior2006 (talk) 20:56, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Movies and shows filmed at the institution

Iss246 is insisting that this article include several trivial, poorly sourced mentions of movies or television shows filmed at this institution. Specifically, they are insisting that the following items be added to or remain in the "In media and popular culture" section:

• The graduation scene in the 1970 movie Love Story was filmed at City College.
• In 2018, the penultimate episode of The Americans (season 6, episode 9) was filmed at City College.
• In Woody Allen's 1971 film Bananas, Nancy, the love interest of the central character Fielding Melish, is a philosophy major at City College.
• The 1984 movie Beat Street was partially filmed at City College, which features a dance audition at Aaron Davis Hall as part of the story.

First, it's unacceptable for Iss246 to edit war to add or keep these items in the article. This is not their own personal article in which they wield a veto over all other editors.

Second, these are trivial facts that do little to help readers understand this institution. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information and our advice on college and university articles has specific guidance what should be included in sections like this: "[It] should not be an indiscriminate list of instances where the college or university is mentioned (in movies, books, television shows, etc.) nor should the section offer examples and discussion selected only by Wikipedia editors." There are other items included in this section that are helpful for readers - these are not.

Third, IMDB is not a reliable source. It's been discussed so many times that it has a specific entry in our list of commonly-discussed sources which in turn links to an essay that goes into more detail. ElKevbo (talk) 18:57, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. I fully agree. These are summary articles, and should not be burdened with such minor points, as details that CCNY was backdrop in a movie, or that such-and-such a building is LEEDS certified. Puffery and trivia bloat on these articles is a constant problem. Jax MN (talk) 19:39, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

I also agree that these popular-culture mentions can't remain in the article and should be removed (I would do it myself if I didn't have a COI with the City University of New York, as I've mentioned in a previous section). However—with regards to your point about buildings, Jax MN—I do think there is an argument for splitting out the buildings into their own articles, where info such as LEED certification would be DUE. At least some of the buildings, such as those on the North Campus, are noteworthy enough to be designated as historical landmarks. – Epicgenius (talk) 00:53, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

References

What is with the snobbery about popular culture? I have two points to make in this regard.

First, IMDb is not as error-prone as you assert it to be. The Wikipedia article on IMDb indicates that submissions undergo consistency checks by the staff before text is published to the Web. As with Wikipedia, there is a volume of information to be checked, and therefore delays between when an item of information is submitted and when it appears. Occasional mistakes are "inevitable," but readers and staff members underline the mistakes. Staff members correct mistakes. In some respects, IMDb is comparable to Wikipedia in that there are contributions and checking by users. But unlike Wikipedia there is a paid editorial staff.

Second, popular culture references are important. Philip Kay wrote a doctoral dissertation at Columbia on the place of City College in the popular imagination. Sure, the location of City College in high culture is important. Of course that idea applies to City College's relation to books like Irving Howe's World of Our Fathers. The location of City College in popular culture is also important. It tells us about the relation of the institution to the surrounding world, even for individuals who haven't read Howe's masterwork. That the college shows up in movies and TV is important too. It is of interest that Fielding Melish's love interest studies philosophy at City College. It tells us about the character. And it tells us about City College in the popular imagination. Iss246 (talk) 04:08, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

We aren't "asserting" anything about IMDb; the community consensus is that it's generally unreliable, and this is listed at WP:RSP#IMDb. If you would like to have that changed, you are free to start a discussion at WP:RSN. However, the current consensus among the Wikipedia community, again, is that IMDb is not generally reliable and should be supplanted by a source which actually is reliable.

Second, I don't think there is a need to list out all of CCNY's pop-culture appearances. As @ElKevbo said above, "our advice on college and university articles has specific guidance what should be included in sections like this: "[It] should not be an indiscriminate list of instances where the college or university is mentioned (in movies, books, television shows, etc.) nor should the section offer examples and discussion selected only by Wikipedia editors." We can, at best, summarize the pop-culture appearances, if they are significant. But we should not be including every single movie where CCNY serves as a backdrop, or every single book where CCNY is mentioned; merely summarizing that info is sufficient to "tells us about City College in the popular imagination", as you say. Epicgenius (talk) 05:51, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Puffery and inflationary over-presentation of trivia is damaging Wikipedia on several fronts. I am for deleting the minor entries Iss246 has been edit warring about. --Melchior2006 (talk) 10:35, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Puffery because you don't like it. I call removing the additions because they come from popular culture snobbism. Iss246 (talk) 01:04, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

It would be helpful if you addressed these objections to the popular culture entries on their merits, rather than calling it "snobbism". – Epicgenius (talk) 14:30, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Indeed. My sense is that the protagonist in this discussion is yoked to a very predictable response among fans of the Ivys or of certain old-line east coast schools, like CCNY. No offense intended, but it is a self-absorption that is endemic among this milieu. (And I say this as as someone who enjoys Manhattan, and how direct New Yorkers are.) It's what drives the constant fretting over school ratings in their Wikipedia articles, and the minutiae of reporting exactly their number of Nobel laurates, etc. Then we get to the deep dive into popular culture and every effort to chisel in the IMPORTANT FACT that Woody Allen sneezed here, or to note a particular window of a campus building wherein in the backstory of a secondary character of a novel (a NYT bestseller, no doubt!), brooding Sheila sat in that very campus building and assessed her dubious life choices up until then. Or that a particular CCNY building was Mise-en-scène in the third panel of a Zippy cartoon from a Sunday in early June, 2005. It is so predictably neurotic. Loveable, even. But we denizens of fly-over country laugh, and New Yorkers cannot perceive the joke. It's. A. Summary. Article.

If Iss246 wishes to write a book, authoritatively listing the nexus points of all popular culture incidents where fame, fortune and CCNY meet, have at it. There may be an audience for it. But that is not here, in a limited, introductory, summary article about CCNY. Jax MN (talk) 17:17, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

I don't know what the fuck you are talking about. I spend a lot of time in Minnesota, so-called flyover country. Iss246 (talk) 22:10, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Yeah. Figured. In the spirit of the season, I'd love to buy you a drink next time you are here. I have a favorite bourbon that has won 7 best-in-class medals, is certified organic, endorsed by two A-listers and is carbon-neutral with featured placement in an upcoming movie... So there's that. Either Minneapolis or St. Paul will be fine. On the larger point, let these summary articles remain as launch pads for further research, without shoehorning in every darn point. Again, I think there may be a market for When Woody Allen walked these mean streets - CCNY in the popular imagination, 1920-2020. I'd even write a blurb for the jacket. Run with it, Iss! Jax MN (talk) 22:39, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

You run with it. Run with the sarcasm dripping from your lips. Iss246 (talk) 05:11, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

(Another holiday party last night...) Actually, that was a drop of bourbon on my lower lip, but thanks for noticing. Golly Iss, I even tried to find common ground for our proposed Twin Cities cocktail, noting the wealth of cultural affirmations or endorsements that my bourbon choice had earned. These apparently are validating ... for people. --Me, I just like the bourbon, and am not a "labels chaser." CCNY is important in its own right, and the cultural nexus points cannot gild the lily any further. Rather, they can appear to be a thinly-veiled effort to resuscitate the purported "importance" of an otherwise fading film or dusty book, only benefiting the film or book by way of mention, versus adding any gravitas to the school.

Let me take another tack: During the Colonial period, it was popular for various inns to declare that "Washington once slept here!". I suppose your interest in linking CCNY to various cultural mention is similar in intent, but I cannot get too worked up over a 50-year old film background shot, or the resume of a minor character, or the logistics that declare Woody Allen once sneezed there. None of these rise to the importance of Geo. Washington, though perhaps opinions may diverge. I'd therefore omit all or most of the cultural mentions. Given the range of opinions, this discussion is valuable to gain consensus, if not 100% agreement. Jax MN (talk) 18:44, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

(←) I'm going off on a tangent here, but since we have some experienced editors in this discussion, let me ask about procedure: how long does this discussion continue (fine with me if it does continue) and who finally decides what to do? Are there guidelines? --Melchior2006 (talk) 14:54, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

@Melchior2006, there is a policy, Wikipedia:Consensus, which states: "Consensus on Wikipedia does not require unanimity (which is ideal but rarely achievable), nor is it the result of a vote. Decision making and reaching consensus involve an effort to incorporate all editors' legitimate concerns, while respecting Wikipedia's policies and guidelines." In other words, while not all participants have to agree, arguments backed by guidelines or policy have greater weight than those that are not. – Epicgenius (talk) 16:25, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! Now, back to this question. It seems clear to me that Iss246 has shown edit-warring behavior and is not interested in consensus, particularly since they don't take the substantial questions seriously that were raised above. Nobody has anything against popular culture, there is lots of it on Wikipedia, but in this case it is a detriment to the higher-ed encyclopedia article on City College. I see no reason to keep the trivia in the article. Are we waiting for further opinions on the matter? Melchior2006 (talk) 08:13, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

If you disagree and provide reasons for your point of view, you are edit-warring. You are also subject to ridicule. Iss246 (talk) 17:48, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

An edit war is something different. This, this is a discussion. And nothing Epicgenius or Melchior have written seems to be worthy of ridicule. BTW, anyone in the room here write Theater as "Theatre"? Jax MN (talk) 18:44, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

I like Jax MN's suggestion of deleting the whole "In media and popular culture" section. Let me go through the points one by one. 1. "In World of Our Fathers, Irving Howe writes about Jewish immigrants' children attending City College." That there were/are a lot of Jews at CCNY seems to me to be really obvious and unnecessary as an additional point. 2. "The 2023 documentary The Five Demands provides archival footage and interviews with students who led the 1969 protests at City College." Unless the students were protesting in some specific CCNY way, this is superfluous. 3. "The graduation scene in the 1970 movie Love Story was filmed at City College." Delete, nothing to discuss. 4. "The central character in Woody Allen's short story "The Kugelmass Episode" is a lovesick City College humanities professor." Delete for same reasons. 4. "In 2018, the penultimate episode of The Americans (season 6, episode 9) was filmed at City College." Delete for the same reasons. 5. "In Woody Allen's 1971 film Bananas, Nancy, the love interest of the central character Fielding Melish, is a philosophy major at City College." Utterly irrelevant. 6. "The 1984 movie Beat Street was partially filmed at City College, which features a dance audition at Aaron Davis Hall as part of the story." There is no encycloopedia-relevant information here; who cares what hall was used? --Melchior2006 (talk) 19:51, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Not including text on Jews attending City College, particularly in an era when institutions like Harvard, Yale, and Columbia put quotas on the numbers of Jews those institutions would admit would be problematic deletion. City College did not impose a quota system on members of ethnic groups. Irving Howe's book is thus important with respect to City College and the aspirations of Jewish youth. The documentary film called the Five Demands covers an inflection point in the history of City College. It was one of the harbingers of the Open Admissions experiment that changed City College and other units of the City University of New York (see the WP entry on Mina P. Shaughnessy). What the participants in this discussion also miss is that City College was once an educational beacon for many New Yorkers, particularly Jewish New Yorkers. They also miss the institution's esteem once held in the popular imagination of New Yorkers. See Philip Kay's Guttersnips and 'Eliterates: City College in the Popular Imagination. Columbia University, 2011. Iss246 (talk) 23:38, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Hold on a moment - instead of summarizing that dissertation and using its bibliography to write a meaningful section with prose and context you're defending this Wikipedia editor-selected list of examples, several of which are really poor examples that tell readers nothing about the subject of this article??? Sorry but you're going about this all wrong.

I intend to remove the specific examples that all of the other editors have already agreed don't belong. If you really believe that this kind of information needs to be included in this article, I strongly recommend that you consider rewriting the section entirely using sources that are actually on-topic instead of spending time defending a poorly described collection of examples that tell readers little about this college. ElKevbo (talk) 02:11, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Irving Howe's book is thus important with respect to City College and the aspirations of Jewish youth. The documentary film called the Five Demands covers an inflection point in the history of City College. It was one of the harbingers of the Open Admissions experiment that changed City College and other units of the City University of New York (see the WP entry on Mina P. Shaughnessy).
— User:Iss246 23:38, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

I do agree these events are important, especially given that the Jewish student population at CCNY is covered in numerous other sources. However, there's a distinction between mentioning the cultural impact of CCNY by summarizing these sources, and mentioning every single work of media where CCNY is featured. I'd look for reliable secondary sources for the documentary and the book you mentioned, because these might be noteworthy. (I'd have to disagree a bit with Melchior that mentioning the book is "really obvious and unnecessary as an additional point", but I figure he said that because, right now, the article only mentions that the book talks about Jews being at CCNY, rather than their impact.) The popular culture entries that were just removed had little, if anything, to do with CCNY. – Epicgenius (talk) 14:53, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm all for relevant content on Jews being at CCNY as a special presence, different from other anti-semitic colleges, and so on. But the fact that a novel (sorry: book) described a Jew being a student there, that is too insignificant. Was he there because he was rejected elsewhere? Was he there because there was a tradition of Jewish students? Was there recruiting of Jews? This kind of information is relevant. --Melchior2006 (talk) 17:03, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

What novel is that? Iss246 (talk) 22:10, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant book. Thanks for the question, it prompted me to look at Howe more closely. It is a book of history, therefore it was in the wrong place (Media). I integrated some of Howe's assertions in more appropriate places and documented them. --Melchior2006 (talk) 07:40, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Irving Howe book doesn't belong in Media and Pop Culture

World of Our Fathers by Irving Howe "writes about Jewish immigrants' children attending City College" is covered above in the article. It is redundant here, and since Howe's book is historical scholarship, it doesn't belong in this section at all. Melchior2006 (talk) 07:16, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Since no one had any arguments for retaining the Howe book in the wrong section, I removed. it. --Melchior2006 (talk) 07:42, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

I don't agree with you. Howe goes into detail about "a small trickle of boys from east European-Jewish families had joined the several dozen German-Jewish boys entering City College each year" back in the 1890s. That beginning was followed by the "great Jewish inpouring to the college." The book by Irving Howe belongs in the section. I will return it there. Iss246 (talk) 15:57, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

This is not your article, Iss246. You do not get to personally dictate its contents especially when other editors disagree with your edits. If you continue edit warring and editing against consensus you will likely end up blocked. ElKevbo (talk) 16:06, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

@Iss246: You have explicitly continued an edit war. Please tell us why we shouldn't ask an administrator to block you as that seems to be the only way to prevent you from edit warring. ElKevbo (talk) 21:47, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Elkevbo, you don't own the site and you don't own me. What I own is the set of books I cite. Iss246 (talk) 21:51, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

This is really getting out of hand. ElKevbo, I think it's time to get help from an administrator. Iss246 isn't willing to talk about issues in a reasonable manner, and we have been patient, but now the matter is becoming clear. -- Melchior2006 (talk) 07:31, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Since there appears to be consensus among 3 of the 4 editors involved in this discussion that the book doesn't belong, I'm removing it again. Iss246, if you restore this content without first demonstrating that consensus has changed then I will ask that you be blocked from editing this article. ElKevbo (talk) 23:37, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

If I may, the book technically counts as media, insofar as books are a type of media. It does not, however, count as popular culture. I'd also surmise that the info about this book could easily be integrated in the "History" section of the article, which already seems to be the case, so mentioning it in the media/pop culture section seems extraneous here. – Epicgenius (talk) 21:45, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree and have previously recommended that Iss246 use the book to see if more information can be added to the article. ElKevbo (talk) 23:37, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Same for the 2019 Goodman book The City Game: Triumph, Scandal, and a Legendary Basketball Team - it may be a good source for adding to the article or editing existing material but it's not appropriate for this section. ElKevbo (talk) 23:39, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

You're right, Goodman should go, too. The section "Media and Pop Culture" is not the place for non-fiction books which cover CCNY; these should be (and are already) referenced periodically throughout the article. Howe is already very well-represented. Iss246 is misunderstanding the purpose of the section. While, as Epicgenius writes, all books are technically media, what we mean here is TV/online journals/magazines/radio/comics and so one. AND: there has to be substantial reference to CCNY in these media, not just cameo roles. -- Melchior2006 (talk) 07:29, 31 December 2023 (UTC)