Talk:Shakespearean problem play

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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 09:08, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Disagree with article

I don't know my Shakespeare, but various sources somewhat disagree with this article. One site states that Merchant's of Venice is often counted among these, but doesn't list Hamlet. This online book (I guess it's a book) lists All's Well..., Measure for Measure, Troilus and Cressida, and 'sometimes Hamlet' (page ix). This Usenet post agrees with the online book. I guess I'll just update the article to state that Hamlet and Merchant's of Venice are only sometimes included. Just wanted to document why I'm making this change, and hoping someone more knowledgeable will correct it if I'm mistaken. -- General Wesc 21:00, 2004 Sep 9 (UTC)

'Problem plays' is the technical term for three plays he wrote in sequence. They come after the last of his pure comedies (12th Night) and before the first of his pure tragedies (Othello; Hamlet isn't exactly a tragedy), and represent some kind of transitional period. Hamlet came right before these three, so it's sometimes tossed in with them. Merchant of Venice, which was written a decade earlier, is not part of this group, as far as the technical term problem play goes.

This seems very confused. The term "Problem play" emerges in the 19th C to describe a type of play that addresses social problems - part of the wider phenomenon of Realism in the arts. It was extended to some Shakespeare plays in the light of these features of nineteenth century theatre. I am moving this page to Problem plays (Shakespeare) and creating a new page on the Problem play in general. Paul B 00:02, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Merchant of Venice seems too early to be a problem play. I first heard the term in association with All's Well, Measure for Measure, T&C, and Timon, and later heard it applied to Hamlet as well. I think that ascription would be fairly late and related to anti-semitism. I doubt the term was ever used for it pre-war, but I could be wrong.--Scottandrewhutchins 15:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

It's quite common to refer to the Merchant as a problem play (see here, for example). That's because it lurches between comedy and seriousness, and it constantly threatens to become a tragedy. I don't think it's because of anti-Semitism, except in so far as it sets up an unresolvable "problem" of justice by portraying Shylock as the bearer of an "alien" set of values that work against the norms required by comedy. The term Problem Play is fluid and has moved beyong its original usage. However, you are right about the date issue. Paul B 16:01, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Title

Back in December User:Rdsmith4 changed the title from Problem plays (Shakespeare) to Problem plays. I've changed it back to clarify that this is specifically about Shakespeare and not about the genre of problem plays in general. Paul B 09:01, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Troilus as comedy

Twice, it's said that all three are (nominally) comedies, but in the little Bard Box at the bottom Troilus is given as tragedy. Sort this out, ye Bardolators. 66.71.90.75 04:05, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Troilus is often called a comedy, but it is listed as a tragedy in the original folios. The template follows the folios, the article goes into more detail. That's why. Wrad 04:22, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

If the Folios listed it as a tragedy, why do we say that all three problem plays are technically comedies? I get that Troilus is alive at the end, but T&C sits very uneasily in the comedy genre, I think. It seems like, at best, it's a tragicomedy. I don't think we should say that it is unproblematically a (nominal) comedy. john k (talk) 00:12, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd also suggest that the romances and problem plays (at least, the three main problem plays) should get their own boxes in the template. john k (talk) 00:13, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

More encyclopedic structure

The article was smoothly and gracefully written, but more in the manner of a short essay than an encyclopedia article. I made structural changes which I feel make the article more encyclopedic, especially in the order of introduction of the material. It definitely lost something in translation from the original flow. Perhaps someone can further tweak the article to regain what was sacrificed. — MaxEnt 00:18, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Reference Problems

Most of the issues in this article seem to stem from poor reference quality. The information in the lead section is derived from a single cited source, and at times the lead disagrees with information from the source (i.e. which plays are identified as Shakespeare's Problem Plays). I'm also not sure how reliable the No Sweat Shakespeare blog is as one of only two references on the page. Further referential sources could present the varying definitions of a Problem Play, as well as how comedies, tragedies, and tragicomedies were defined in Shakespeare's time and how they are defined today. Clarifying these definitions with more references could help make the article more coherent, especially as it describes Boas's conception of the Problem Plays in terms of the timeline of Shakespeare's writing (a defining characteristic of the Problem Plays previously unmentioned in the article). Because the page relies so heavily only on two sources, only Boas's conception of the Problem Play is discussed. The article fails to discuss with any specificity the moral dilemmas or social problems presented in any of the plays described as Problem Plays, which could give further insight into how the Problem Plays are defined in contrast with Shakespeare's tragedies or comedies. The closing line of the lead also mentions that a definition of the Problem Play is not agreed upon by the critics, and further sourcing could help to illuminate why the Problem Plays are quite so problematic, both in definition and in content. -Jgisi (talk) 02:42, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

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