Talk:Moons of Saturn

Sheppard is not a reliable source for irregular moon orbits

A caution to all editors of this list and other articles related to irregular moons:

Scott Sheppard's list of Saturnian moon orbits on his website are not accurate as they are based on osculating orbital elements (which vary significantly) defined on an unspecified epoch, rather than mean orbital elements that are averaged over multiple centuries as given by JPL and jointly by Jacobson et al. (2022). This is apparent when you consider Saturn LX (S/2004 S 29), which Sheppard incorrectly classifies as "Inuit" when it is actually Gallic when averaged over a 5,000 timespan in Jacobson et al. (2022).

Sheppard also uses osculating orbital elements to make his claims of new moon groups in his recent RNAAS paper. However, JPL's recently-published mean orbital elements for Saturn's 63 new moons invalidate half of Sheppard's proposed moon groups (Hati, Thrymr, S/2004 S 36, Thiazzi); there is no evidence of significant clustering around these moons in semi-major axis, inclination, or eccentricity space. Sheppard also proposes the existence of a Lysithea subcluster within the Himalia group of Jupiter's irregular moons, but JPL shows no evidence of that too. Nevertheless, Sheppard is correct about the Inuit group having three subclusters (Kiviuq, Paaliaq, Siarnaq) and S/2006 S 20 being related to Phoebe. Nrco0e (talk) 21:20, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Saturn`s etymology

Saturn or Cronos was a titan and father of most of the major Roman Gods, including Jupiter. He was not the God for harvest and agriculture. The goddess Ceres or Demeter was respinsible for that Felix Schultz-Süchting (talk) 20:13, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Notability of some of the 63 new moons

These are the notable moons I found on 1 website (Tilmann's Web Site):

• S/2019 S 6 --> Once part of the Gallic group (MPEC) Siarnaq fragment along with S/2020 S 5
• S/2006 S 9 --> Possibly a Phoebe fragment like S/2006 S 20
• S/2005 S 5 --> 100^th irregular moon of Saturn
• S/2004 S 52, S/2019 S 21 and S/2020 S 9 --> Largest average distance along with S/2004 S 26
• S/2020 S 4 --> Possibly the smallest irregular moon
• S/2005 S 4 and S/2020 S 1 --> Kiviuq/Ijiraq fragment
• S/2004 S 43 --> 100^th moon of Saturn by count at that time it was announced
• S/2004 S 46 and S/2019 S 2 --> Their inclinations makes the orbital planet at close no tilt against the ecliptic plane
• S/2006 S 18, S/2007 S 5, S/2019 S 14 and S/2020 S 3 --> Their orbits are almost circular compared to the rest of the irregular moons
• S/2006 S 19, S/2019 S 11 and S/2020 S 7 --> They lead among the furthest moons of Saturn due to high eccentricity
• S/2019 S 13 --> The least titled moon against the ecliptic plane
• S/2019 S 18 and S/2019 S 19 --> Their inclinations are similar to Bestla/Narvi
• S/2006 S 14 --> The least eccentric irregular moon

Ladesh88 (talk) 07:53, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

S/2019 S 6 was just wrongly linked at first; the orbit is not really unusual. Most of the others will probably be surpassed in future. Double sharp (talk) 07:52, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

S/2020 S 4

I have a question. Is S/2020 S 4 Inuit or Gallic? According to this website: [1], it is apparently an Inuit group member. So, should it consider be Inuit or Gallic? It may be even an outlier prograde moon. FilipinoGuy0995 (talk) 04:06, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

@FilipinoGuy0995: It looks like Tilmann Denk is judging S/2020 S 4's orbital grouping based on its osculating orbital elements from the MPEC link, which says the moon had an inclination of 43.4 degrees at the time of 25 February 2023. It is incorrect to classify a moon's orbital grouping based on its osculating orbital elements (defined at a single instant in time) instead of mean orbital elements (averaged over many years), since an irregular moon's orbit changes significantly over time due to gravitational perturbations by other planets. Because of this, S/2020 S 4 can sometimes reach high inclinations up to 45 degrees, or low inclinations down to 36 degrees. JPL's mean orbital elements page says that the average orbital inclination of S/2020 S 4 is 40.1 degrees over a timespan 5,000 years—that puts it on the high end of the Gallic group inclination range.

As far as I know, JPL is the only reputable source that provides mean orbital elements for all planetary irregular moons. Do not use classifications based on osculating orbital elements like those from Tilmann Denk and Scott Sheppard's websites, since they are inaccurate. This article already mentions this fact; I strongly encourage you to read the disclaimer about osculating/mean orbital elements in the Moons of Saturn#Confirmed section. Nrco0e (talk) 05:09, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

I see that you've added Tilmann Denk's claim of S/2019 S 6 being an Inuit/Siarnaq group member in its article. Unfortunately, this is inaccurate because of the osculating orbital elements problem I've described above. Nrco0e (talk) 05:15, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Independent articles

So, I've been waiting for so long on when will the rest of newly announced Saturnian moons having their own articles according on this AfD page that I saw. I just want to know when, not by reverting it back. FilipinoGuy0995 (talk) 10:15, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Maybe about a few months or a year, that's my guess 124.104.194.56 (talk) 21:09, 20 March 2024 (UTC)