Talk:John Barleycorn

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Burns version is not the original — we have versions of John Barleycorn from England and Scotland dating from the 16th and 17th centuries [1] [2]. I'll fix the entry shortly. —Ashley Y 18:43, Nov 29, 2003 (UTC)

Done. I'm also tempted to replace Burns version with an earlier one. —Ashley Y 19:14, Nov 29, 2003 (UTC)

Another relavant reference

The topic of John Barleycorn is also referred to several times in "The Big Book," Alcoholics Anonmyous, usually relating to the feeling of an alcoholics' having been drinking - how the feeling is, to the alcoholic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Garrettinphx (talk • contribs) on 07:48, February 13, 2006.

Name change?

There is also a novel called John Barleycorn by Jack London. Should we change the name of this page and create a disambiguation page or just add a note at the top? Stroika 14:17, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd add a custom disambiguation line. The Jack London novel takes its name from the folk tradition that this one is about. Smerdis of Tlön 14:49, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Aaah that's what the {{dablink|Text}} tag is called. Ta. A preferable solution. Stroika 15:17, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

More variations than any other?

The claim that "there are more versions of this song than any other in the English language" seems a bold one to make without substantiation. Indeed there are numerous other possible contenders for this crown. Without too much thought I would suggest that the Gypsy Davy / Raggle-Taggle Gypsy / Seven Yellow Gypsies meme, and possibly even Barbara Allen could eclipse John Barleycorn in this respect, although I don't see how this could ever be authoritatively quantified. I have edited the text to soften this claim.

LaborLawTalk

This link was defective, pointing to a site that no longer worked. However, rather than being deleted the defectice link was allowed to remain, with a note attached. I have replaced this with a link to alternative versions of 16th/17th century verses which serve, I hope, the same purpose. abdullahazzam

Most notable recording?

The claim that the recording by Traffic is the most notable seems more opinion than encyclopedic. Is there a particular reason why this is the most notable recording? --Robminchin 05:29, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

John Barleycorn as a pagan rite?

Does someone want to rewrite (delete?) the second paragraph? It has no citation ans seems speculative at best. And it has errors: refering to corn, not barley and refering to bread not liquor. Or am I missing something?WBerta 15:48, 20 April 2007 (UTC) I quite agree, the song very specifically refers to the malting process in which enzymes convert starch to fermentable sugars, this is vital for brewing but pointless for baking. The song details the growing and harvesting of barley for brewing in great detail and seems to have little to with pagan rites except as yet another example of the cycle of life and death JDN

Most scholars and folklorists believe it is from a pagan rite, sadly a lot of websites say it is from Celtic which is misinformed speculation as the song obviously comes from the old pagan religion of the English and thus connected with the Wen (see Vanir). There is a trend to make the old English into a bunch of thieves who steal off the Celts. Bah!

I'll try to find citations for that paragraph when I have time, even though I don't really think we should bother seeing as it is such a widely held belief. DR. Martin Hesselius 16:45, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

widely held beliefs can still be wrong beliefs! ;) Totnesmartin 19:33, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

As long as the entry is balanced, it surely doesn't matter whether the beliefs are correct or not: they are indeed widespread. For a citation, try "Beowulf & Grendel: The Truth Behind England's Oldest Legend," by John Grigsby, which I think contains an analysis, but maybe someone else could comment. Although I'm not happy with the idea, he's following a long tradition within the folk revival. There were numerous articles in pagan magazines in the eighties and nineties, as well, I think as at least one in J. EFDSS and one in Folklore. It's relatively simple to turn out an article and get published in short order. In the interests of NPOV, I'd have to state that (a) from the earliest texts it's not really clear that the theme is explicit death and resurrection, rather than simply the crop cycle, but also that the Christian 'death and resurrection' themes cited in the paragraph can also be found in earlier near-east religions. But as ever, I'll leave other people some time to comment (?Fuzzypeg?) before I wade in, even though I know that's maybe not the point of a wiki. Ffetcher 08:34, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Performances

A couple of the paragraphs here:

"The song is frequently cited by devotees of Sir James George Frazer..." and "As shown above, the point of the tale told by the original versions is twofold:..."

surely either need modification to refer to particular performances, or to be moved to the main text. Ffetcher 08:38, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Traffic-John Barleycorn Must Die (album cover).jpg

Image:Traffic-John Barleycorn Must Die (album cover).jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 04:49, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Traffic-John Barleycorn Must Die (album cover).jpg

Image:Traffic-John Barleycorn Must Die (album cover).jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 05:19, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Wir pflugen

I have once heard "John Barleycorn" sung to the tune better known in connection with We plough the fields, and scatter, with the refrain "Put your wine into glasses, put your cider into old tin cans/John Barleycorn in the light brown jug will prove the strongest man". This was at a muster of the King's Army, English Civil War Society, c. 1981, but I am in no position to vouch for its authenticity.Captain Pedant (talk) 22:31, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

• the comment in the article about "A popular hymn, "We Plough the Fields and Scatter", is often sung at Harvest Festival to the same tune as John Barleycorn" made me smile but i doubt it's entirely accurate. 81.110.252.178 (talk) 18:51, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

John Barleycorn comparible to Osiris legend

found in the novel "pollen" by jeff noon. too lazy to transcribe what he writes there.

basically suggests that egyptian god osiris has pre-christian british isles equivalence in the figure of j barleycorn. this is non-academic (pollen is a work of fiction) but i think the point at least should be included in this page that j barleycorn is not so much a "food" god as he is a "trickster" god like loki or osiris.

attempted to be killed multiple times, failing that, cut into pieces, then returns

• in the form of alchohol itself* or the "spirit" of the fermented drink, not the

literal wheat, food, etc. the subversion of the food itself, via fermentation, and drugs the mind as opposed to nourishing the body!

the name "barleycorn" and the "farming song" etc likely a christian expurgiation of a powerful pagan diety. this is to be found in the aforementioned novel by jeff noon if you care to look. j barleycorn is portrayed therein as a pre-christian "satan" e.g. loki or osiris or hades etc. the post christian devil being of course purely malignant, the pagan version is instead clever, deceptive, rasputinesque, dangerous to men, and enjoying toying with men, yet not at all times hated by the "beloved" gods, or even by men, dependant on situation.

i hope this is useful. i think the importance of this character is highly underestimated since i with jeff noon feel that barleycorn might be a key vestige of an extremely important pagan diety on the ancient british pantheon -- information of most of which is tragically almost completely lost....

all that being said, i would be pleased with just a brief note hitting on the key points "trickster god, osiris similarity, connection to alchohol, probably changed by christians", and also in the external references or miscellany, a mention of the jeff noon novel "pollen". and if this is acedemically controversial, then introduce it as such but IMHO the osiris paralel is startling enough that what i'm saying here deserves the mention. (moreso than we need to hear about a chumbawamba song, lol)

peace. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Reetside (talk • contribs) 17:18, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Unsourced assertions and weasel wording.

There are various unsupported assertions concerning pagan origins for this 16th century song. The first appearance of the song is many centuries after Christianity replaced paganism in Britain, and such assertions need solid references to be credible. Eastcote (talk) 03:22, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Done. :bloodofox: (talk) 03:29, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

It sure sounds like a song about human sacrifice though. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.252.183.253 (talk) 23:40, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

• Splendid, but that means nothing: I've written songs touching on pagan and folkloric themes, but that doesn't make those songs Ancient Pagan History. Ravenswing 05:59, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Original Research, Wordy, and Primary Sourced

ON a personal note I enjoyed this article; after tracing down a reference in "Billions" I changed a single word in the article to improve readability. In overview, this article is worthwhile but its original research and as such is wordy with limited or no support. In contrast this is what Britannica has to say;

John Barleycorn, fictional humorous personification of alcohol, first appearing about 1620. John Barleycorn was a figure in British and American folklore. British sources often refer to the character as Sir John Barleycorn, as in a 17th-century pamphlet, The Arraigning and Indicting of Sir John Barleycorn, Knight, and in a ballad found in The English Dancing Master (1651). The Scottish poet Robert Burns reworked folk material for his poem “John Barleycorn” (1787).

I think the above is more encyclopedic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.203.10.104 (talk) 21:47, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Melody

The article is full of discussion of the lyric but I can't find any mention of the melody. Where did it come from? Is it as old as the lyric? Is there more than one melody? Anybody know? Nogoodbooks (talk) 06:55, 17 September 2023 (UTC)