Talk:Flag of South Vietnam

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photo caption[edit]

there is a photo of "Vietnamese Americans parading with the South Vietnamese flag during Tet in Little Saigon." There are a lot of Little Saigons in the world; which one is pictured here?! Mang (talk) 18:17, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The most famous one - the largest and oldest one. DHN (talk) 20:54, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know why you didn't just answer the question directly. It's apparently Little Saigon, Orange County Vermiceli (talk) 18:00, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Page name[edit]

I'm going to move this to "Flag of the Republic of Vietnam" because that seems to be the standard form for the name of such pages, see e.g. Flag of the United Kingdom and Flag of the United States. Noel (talk) 12:28, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree that "of the Republic" is better than "of Republic", but I'd actually suggest moving it back to Flag of South Vietnam, where it was originally. Two main reasons:
  • The "most common name" rule — the state was/is better known as "South Vietnam" than "Republic of Vietnam"
  • Consistency — our page for the state is at South Vietnam, with Republic of Vietnam as a redirect. Either both should say "South Vietnam" or both should say "Republic of Vietnam".
Would anyone have any objections to putting it back where it was originally created? -- Vardion 16:25, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This is being discussed at WP:RM. Noel (talk) 14:44, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Archived page move discussion[edit]

(from Wikipedia:Requested moves)

Flag of the Republic of Vietnam → Flag of South Vietnam[edit]

I've raised this move (back to the article's original location) on the talk page, and got no objections. The basic rationale is the "most common name rule" and conformity (South Vietnam is called such, not Republic of Vietnam, a redirect - surely, therefore, "X of ..." articles should reflect this? -- Vardion 03:55, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

  • Makes perfect sense to match the main article name. -- Netoholic @ 08:42, 2005 Jan 2 (UTC)
  • Neutral. For consistency, it makes sense. But it points IMO to the absurdity of preferring colloquial names for countries. There's a sense in which there hasn't been a "Flag of South Vietnam", because there hasn't been such a country - and the article name implies that "Flag of South Vietnam" was the official term. Rd232 09:54, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The flag was of the political entity known as the Republic of Vietnam, not the region more or less controlled by the RVN at various times in its 20-year history. ADH (t&m) 13:50, Jan 2, 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose, for consistency with Wikipedia naming conventions for other flags, e.g. Flag of the United Kingdom, which go by the formal name of the political entity, not the generic name of the locality it rules. Noel (talk) 14:46, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Decision: No consensus for page move gathered after 13 days on WP:RM. -- Netoholic @ 04:55, 2005 Jan 16 (UTC)

  • Oppose. The common name rule is a good one, but we don't have to follow it unthinkingly. In this case, common usage is based on the situation that existed during the war. But Vietnam is a country, not a war. Vietnamese think of their country as consisting of three regions, North, Central, and South. Thus South Vietnam is a region of Vietnam that existed before, during and after the war. This flag is not a regional flag. The three stripes represent the three regions of Vietnam. The flag represents the idea of a non-Communist Vietnam, or "Free Vietnam." To call it the flag of South Vietnam implies that the people who fly it are Southerners seeking independence. Besides the Republic of Vietnam, there were several other Southern governments in history and they used various flags.Kauffner (talk) 06:16, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I agree with the above statement. This is the flag Vietnamese people had identified themselves with, and remain to identify themselves with, but unfortunately they are not allowed to fly it anymore. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Annhoang (talk • contribs) 06:59, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

similar flag[edit]

catalan flag. can be confusing. it sshoud be pointed briefly as done in the italian flag toward irish and mexican clones. Paris By Night 20:50, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Colors[edit]

Are we sure the colors are correct in the image? The images of the South Vietnamese flag in the 2003 CNN article have darker colors; see [1] and [2] - Thanks, Hoshie 01:21, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, I don't know of any proclamations that specifies the exact shade of yellow and red, despite my extensive reading into this topic (even for the official flag of Vietnam, the red flag with yellow star). yellowtailshark (talk) 10:18, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The Vietnam Service Medal (which is based on the South Vietnamese flag), that is issued by the U.S. government uses 255,205,0 (RGB) for the yellow and 186,12,47 (RGB) for the red, for what it's worth. Those shades are closer to what's seen in the photographs. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 04:47, 6 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I found this photo could give help: File:Independence Palace (9982376564).jpg. -- Great Brightstar (talk) 16:43, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think the National Library of Vietnam (https://nlv.gov.vn/) may have reliable source to see. -- Great Brightstar (talk) 07:36, 30 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 8 October 2014[edit]

Replace

"*In October 2014, the Vietnamese Student Association chapter at the University of Arizona discovered that the University had removed the South Vietnamese flag from the campus bookstore's Flag Display (which includes flags from all over the world to celebrate the diversity found amongst students). Afterwards, the VSA chapter launched an online petition in protest to the decision.[1]"

with

"*In October 2014, the Vietnamese Student Association chapter at the University of Arizona discovered that the University had removed the South Vietnamese flag from the campus bookstore's Flag Display (which includes flags from all over the world to celebrate the diversity found amongst students). Afterwards, the VSA chapter launched an online petition in protest to the decision.[2] The University then responded and explained that the removal was due to a misunderstanding amongst the staff. It then apologized and promised to re install the flag afterwards."

as it was an ongoing event on 3 October 2014 at 04:41 that was resolved after the page was protected on 3 October 2014‎ at 20:14. This information was obtained from personnal interactions with VSA board members at CU and is identical to a recent edit on the Vietnamese Student Association page in a section discussing the very same event under the subsection "Flag Politics". 128.138.4.243 (talk) 01:49, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Nguyễn Quốc Việt (talk) 17:33, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ fascinasiansblog.com:help get our flag back
  2. ^ fascinasiansblog.com:help get our flag back

Semi-protected edit request on 22 October 2014[edit]

Request for removal or replacement of the words "fabulous unicorn" from the origins section of the article (can be found using the CTRL f command and typing into the search bar). Suspected to be a minor case of vandalism that wasn't discovered. May be a reference to the qilin but not likely unless sources may prove it.

128.138.4.243 (talk) 21:52, 22 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Already done Stickee (talk) 00:32, 23 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion:

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Thành Thái flag is fake[edit]

Please see this article, the story was invented by a member of the Việt Tân and later repeated by Worldstatesmen and then quoted in a doctoral thesis of an American (South Vietnam-born) student at the University of California. There exist no primary sources to back up the claim that it was ever used before 1948 and the flag is likely based on the flag of the Autonomous Republic of Cochinchina (created in 1946) and not on any Nguyễn Dynasty flag. In order to prevent the further spread of fake news I suggest re-writing the section to debunk the claims rather than removing it, so no false information about it would spread any further. --Donald Trung (talk) 01:01, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, the origin of the flag online is Worldstatesmen who in an e-mail sent at "Sent: Friday, 30 May 2014 6:53 AM - To: Tuan Pham - Subject: RE: Flags of Vietnam" noted: "Greetings Mr. Pham, Thank you for visiting my website. There have been many questions about the Flags of Vietnam listed on my site. There is much confusion and contradictory information about early flags of Vietnam. However, I do not have detailed record on every national flag on my. I think it is fair to say that the flag commonly associated with South Vietnam 1948-76 was in use prior by the Vietnamese." This assertion is actually made without any evidence, just his own assumptions. Cahoon is usually a reliable source and he is intelligent and usually researches topics well but this is quite sloppy. "I do think it is an interesting looking flag, that sadly has taken on all the bad feelings of the east vs. west and communist vs. capitalist struggles, though this flag pre-dates both. Even the 1945 “Que Ly” flag is clearly and attempt to “remake” a version of the earlier 1890 flag." The thing about the Que Ly Flag is that it most likely did not look like how it is usually depicted, this might have been done so to spread the legitimacy of the South Vietnamese flag to somehow make it "seem older" than the flag of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam.

He was quoted in a University text about the flag: "I assume you are contacting because the authors of this document said to do so: http://www.dienhanhvanhoaquocte.org/chao/files/The%20National%20Flag%20of%20VN.pdf I wish they would remove that line as I do not have any extensive collections on Vietnamese flags." But then goes to admit that he is a bad source himself, he admits that he probably shouldn't be listed as a source there. "However, the authors do note that – “Emperor Thanh Thai was able to understand and sympathize with the people’s discontent. Consequently, not only did he refuse to satisfy the demands of the dominating government, but also utilized many honest and virtuous talents like Ngo Dinh Kha and Nguyen Huu Bai, with the hope of restoring and reforming the country. In 1890, the Emperor passed a decree, changing the flag with Chinese characters to a new flag. The yellow flag with three red stripes was created and used for the first time as the national flag.”" It is Ben Cahoon that asserted this myth in English, usually Ben Cahoon is a trustworthy source for a lot of information but this e-mail shows a number of flaws.

Cahoon goes on to state that the supposed origin of the flag was kept a secret to protect the Thành Thái Emperor at: "AND “The news that the Yellow Flag was drawn by the artist Le Van De, without mentioning the existence of this flag 50 years earlier was intentional. It was to protect the well being of Emperor Thanh Thai. For this reason, the fact that Chief of State Bao Dai chose the Yellow Flag of the French resistance era as the national flag for the new regime was a brilliant decision, in accordance with just causes." The claim about the Que Ly Flag is also very likely false, as there is evidence that the stripes never touched the sides of the flag. These claims are perpetuated at the flag at the "Empire of Vietnam" article. Later on he lists the adoption date at 1955 at: "In 1955, Premier Ngo Đình Diệm called for a people resolution to establish the First Republic of Vietnam. Respecting the heroic anti-French mission of the Yellow Flag, the new congress continued to used the Yellow Flag as the National Flag. The 1963 coup-d’etat replaced the First Republic regime with the Second Republic of Vietnam, but the Yellow Flag remained as the National Flag until the South was invaded by the North in 1975.”" But this makes no sense as the flag had already been adopted by the Provisional Central Government of Vietnam and the State of Vietnam prior.

Cahoon ends his e-mail to Phạm Quang Tuấn with the admission that he basically didn't consult any primary sources: "I hope more research will be done on this topic by Vietnamese scholars, who most likely will need access to materials controlled by the current national government and possibly some in Bibliothèque nationale de France (French National Library). Best wishes for your research, Sincerely, Ben Cahoon - Editor www.worldstatesmen.org and twitter.com/WorldStatesmen" This immediately throws out the credibility of the origin of most reports about the flag dating to the Thành Thái period as they were mostly based on a biased source's biased source. --Donald Trung (talk) 01:23, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also note that the Việt Tân are South Vietnamese loyalists, so they would have a vested interest in making the symbols of the Republic of Vietnam seem more "historically legitimate" as many "national histories" are just myths created to form social bondings between a people, this is such an attempt. --Donald Trung (talk) 01:26, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: Note that the "Thành Thái flag" was originally added by Unserefahne (Musée Annam) who is known for spreading false information and uploads a lot of fantasy flags. This user has no research skills and is known for adding fraudulent sources and doesn't seem to be capable of understanding Vietnamese history or culture, I would say reverting anything this user does should be the standard course for dealing with them and their obsession with adding hoaxes to Wikipedia articles. --Donald Trung (talk) 08:12, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

True authorship of this flag[edit]

I have long suspected that this flag is actually based on the flag of French Cochinchina during the late 1940's and according to this article it is, the article makes a number of claims citing a number of books I don't have that this flag was either designed by Christian clergy or French military officers. Perhaps if this article can be deemed reliable it could be worked in the text, of course after making it more neutral as its author has a very pro-Communist anti-Republic of Vietnam stance and biases. But the work does sufficient research to debunk a number of myths that have been circulating about this flag over the years that I think should be more broadly addressed here in order to prevent the further spread of disinformation. --Donald Trung (talk) 14:16, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that this was most likely the case. A fair observation would tell us that the flag of the Provisional Central Government of Vietnam was almost identical to the flag of the Republic of Cochinchina, except the colors. Whoever "designed" the yellow national flag must have seen the Cochinchina flag before. They simply adopted the pattern of that available flag and only changed the colors. Greenknight dv Greenknight dv (talk) 07:16, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Tôn Thất Sa[edit]

Sometime ago a user left me the following message at the Wikimedia Commons:

Chào bạn, ngoài thông tin họa sĩ Lê Văn Đệ vẽ cờ vàng ba sọc đỏ cho cựu hoàng Bảo Đại tại Hong Kong, có thuyết cho rằng cụ Tôn Thất Sa (bàn với lm. Trần Hữu Thanh) vẽ cờ này tại Huế:

Bạn có nhận định gì về thuyết này không ạ? Greenknight dv (talk) 04:45, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I then responded with saying: "@Greenknight dv:, thanks for the information, I will look at it when I will have some time, I know that many myths exist around the South Vietnamese flag but it most certainly wasn't an original flag and was likely derived from earlier flags. Though these flags were all made sometime in the years 1946~1947 largely in response to the Democratic Republic of Vietnam's national flag." The relevant passage from Hon-Viet.co.uk include "Năm 1950, Pháp công nhận quyền độc lập của Quốc gia Việt nam. Quốc kỳ Việt nam hình chữ nhật. Chiều cao bằng hai phần ba chiều dài. Chiều cao được chia ra làm ba phần bằng nhau. Phần ở giữa lại chia làm năm phàn bằng nhau gồm ba sọc đỏ và hai sọc vàng nằm xen kẻ, song song với nhau. Màu vàng của quốc kỳ là màu của dân tộc. Màu đỏ biểu trưng cho lòng can đảm chiến đấu bảo vệ quê hương. Ba sọc đỏ biểu trưng cho ba miền Bắc, Trung, Nam chung trên lá cờ, đoàn kết bất khả phân. - Cờ vàng ba sọc đỏ là lá cờ của chính nghĩa, cờ của Tổ quốc. Đó là quốc kỳ của nước Việt Nam. - Tôn Thất Bình" And attributes the creation of this flag to Tôn Thất Sa.
Vinh2SG further claims "Người vẽ ra lá Quốc Kỳ màu vàng ba sọc đỏ không phải là danh hoạ Lê Văn Đệ mà là danh hoạ Tôn Thất Sa . Cuộc thảo luận biểu quyết lá Quốc Kỳ tại Huế chứ không phải tại Hồng Kông như GS Nguyễn Ngọc Huy viết." and while this source can't be used in this article the original souce by Professor Nguyễn Ngọc Huy could be used to create a section about disputed authorship. The forum poster at the VietBF website also noted that it is very unlikely that Lê Văn Đệ was the author of this flag simply because the timeline doesn't add up. I have to concur as evidence of flags that resemble this one date to at least 1946 and the authorship of all have been called into dispute. --Donald Trung (talk) 05:23, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

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The Warning about the edit on this page.[edit]

In the last recent edits on 2 August 2022 on this Article by 2001:EE0:4D3E:D950:40EB:B1CF:C326:9220. have been interrupted by an unusual no meaning edits to the Article and going to Vandalism this page by a word not belong to this title category articles. and it on Vietnamese language immediately not English languages. This is his edits: Ba Sọc Khát Nước = Three Sticks - Stripes Thirsty Water. Giẻ lau chống thấm nước = Waterproof Wipes. and it not belong to suggested and supported category and using any interruptions the page and the word not belong to the category. if the Adminstratior see his come back to this Article again and edit you can actually ban this IP for good. THE NEWS SERVICE IEOS UPDATES (talk) 12:36, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That vandalism was reverted weeks ago. OhNoitsJamie Talk 15:30, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Ohnoitsjamie Thanks for saying it. If you see this targets or many target do a vandalism in the future. you can suggest Administratior to banned that target IP because of Vandalism for an unlimited time banning. THE NEWS SERVICE IEOS UPDATES (talk) 07:48, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
For future reference
These are insults commonly used by Communist Vietnamese against this flag
- Ba Sọc Khát Nước = Thirsty 3 stripes. In Vietnamese, Water and Country have the same word: Nước. So it is an insult mean "3 stripes flag that lacking a Nation/lacking of water (thirsty)"
- Giẻ lau chống thấm nước = Waterproof rag. Meaning similar to the insult above
Please beware of these vandalisms. NightJasian (talk) 10:29, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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