Talk:Rugby league positions

Article Title

I moved this page from Rugby League positions, in keeping with the titling of the main article as rugby league (no capitials). Grinner 15:11, May 11, 2005 (UTC)

The links below should copied and pasted into articles e.g. player bios. GordyB 11:13, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• I modified the previous headings to make them more 'link-able'. I admit, I didn't think before I made the changes, but I do believe these headings are far simplier, which is better. Many other pages where changed based on the special 'what links here' page. POds 12:33, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Good call in my opinion. Grinner 12:48, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

It's is easier to use. I am going to change the player position links in the diagram on this page which seem to have slipped through the net. GordyB 14:57, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

[[Rugby league positions#Prop-forwards|prop]]
[[Rugby league positions#Hooker|hooker]]
[[Rugby league positions#Second-row forwards|second row]]
[[Rugby league positions#Lock|loose forward]]
[[Rugby league positions#Scrum-half|scrum-half]]
[[Rugby league positions#Stand-off|stand-off]]
[[Rugby league positions#Centre three-quarters|centre]]
[[Rugby league positions#Wing three-quarters|wing]]
[[Rugby league positions#Fullback|fullback]]

SH versus NH usage

Cleaned up the mish-mash of terminology, which alternated between SH & NH, but this has changed the lock link, so feel free to revert if it's a problem --Paul 02:54, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

The problem is that Aussies / Kiwis say 'lock' whilst we say 'loose forward'. I think we need to reach some consensus on the terminology used in the article. Everytime the titles are edited the links to specific sections stop working which creates a lot of editing work. I started this article and there is a Wiki protocol on British versus American usage that in articles where using one or another version doesn't make more sense e.g. an article on British politics the convention should be to follow the original usage. I originally had intended to keep both Aussie and UK terminology at as near equal status as possible. Obviously RL is much bigger in Australia than in the UK and most British followers of RL are pretty familiar with Australianisms it is a British sport by origin.GordyB 13:05, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

It appeared as if you had originally used NH terms, so as you say, the Wikipedia convention would be to retain that style (I'm SH, and personally it doesn't bother me). So that's what I did, with the SH usage noted. Before that, the heading would say e.g. Stand-off, and then subsequently refer to a 5/8, which seemed rather haphazard to me, and the bit I wanted to clean up. --Paul 15:55, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Just adding to the confusion, but are the terms Centre three-quarters and Wing three-quarters still used in the UK? They sound rather archaic to me, certainly I would simply say Wing and Centre. Perhaps its a measure of creeping Australianisation, though on the other hand I would never say lock. (Ughh!) Grinner 09:53, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

It's kind of the other way here, usage of centre three-quarter has been known (rarely though, probably because it's bit of a mouthful). Up until at least the mid-90s, Big League (the official program) groups the centres and wingers under the heading 'threequarters'. But loose forward? Never. --Paul 12:45, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

I think we should drop the '3/4s bit' from the titles as it only ever seems to be used in coaching manuals. Perhaps the text should make reference to 'threequarters' somewhere. Scrum half / halfback, stand-off / 5/8ths, loose forward / lock seem to be the only major differences. If we can agree a standard format e.g. NH terms in titles and SH in the text then we can leave it at that and change the links accordingly. In the meantime I'm removing the '3/4s' bit.GordyB 13:13, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Just regarding the whole 'three-quarters' business. I consider myself a bit of a league connoisuer but I don't know where the useage of the term 'three quarter' as a suffix to 'wing' and 'centre' comes from. In Australia we hear it used here and there by match commentators, but not often. You guys said it seemed archaic and something to be found in coaching manuals, which I think are two perfect criterion for inclusion in this wikipedia article. Plus, I'm simply curious to know what it means myself! Can anyone insert an explanation into the article?--Jeff79 08:53, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

It's a hang-over from union, the three-quarters stand behind the half-backs but in front of the fullback hence they are three quarters back. Stand-off gets called five eights in the Southern Hemisphere because they are slightly further forward than the 3/4s but further back than the scrum half.

I don't think it makes much sense in league because most of the time the backs are level with the forwards, only those involved in the play-the-ball or the full back are usually significantly forwards or back.GordyB 15:35, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Interesting Sources?

I've noticed the official harlequins site displaying a few articles recently about rugby league positions. Perhaps these could be of use? POds 12:34, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

• Rugby league Hookers POds 12:34, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
• Role of the Loose Forward in Rugby league POds 12:34, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

I shall be incorporating the info as best I can, though much of it is comparison with the union code which although interesting would not fit into the scope of the article. Those who are interested should note that there is also an article on props and second rows on the same site.GordyB 15:29, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Acting half-back / dummy half

I've heard the term "acting half" more often than "dummy half", is this a Northern Hemisphere/Southern hemisphere usage? I think the term should be included, and will put it in if no-one objects.

From the 13-a-side rules, Section 11:

Acting halfback

(f) A player of each team, to be known as the acting halfback, may stand immediately and directly behind his own player taking part in the play-the- ball and must remain in this position, until the play-the-ball movement is complete.

Paul Tracy_|\talk

Add it by all means but don't change the names of any titles as this breaks the links.GordyB 23:13, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Can I add another plea for people not to change the titles of the player positions, it breaks any anchored links that have been set up on other pages e.g. [[Rugby league positions#Scrum-half|scrum-half]] will only work if the ==Scrum-half== title is not changed.GordyB 23:50, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Position Names and Notable Players

I think Stand-off and five-eighth should be given equal standing in the headings for positions. The same with Scrum-half and halfback. Rugby League is more prominent in Australia than any other country, and I daresay quite alot of use of this article will be sourced there. But most Australians wouldn't even know what a stand-off or scrum-half is. Within the text of the article, referring to them as stand-offs and scrum-halfs is fine, but I think just the headings should be changed to Stand-off (Five-Eighth) and Scrum-half (Halfback) respectively so readers can see what the following section is about without having to read it for clues.

Second point is the list of "notable" players appearing under each position. I think people are just coming along and adding players they like, whether they're notable or not. I think there should be some criteria, eg. international selection. Several players are mentioned who only ever played at club level and several players who attained representative status (and are thus actually 'notable') aren't mentioned. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 159.53.78.141 (talk) 00:02, 27 January 2007 (UTC).

As I have pointed out repeatedly, if the titles are changed then the anchored links stop working. If you can work out a way to prevent this then go ahead but otherwise please don't.GordyB 09:10, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Johnathan Thurston was added to notable half-backs, because he is now considered to be the best half-back in the game.--KorgBoy

Sorry mate, you need to read on a bit.--Jeff79 00:03, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks mate. I read up on that last time. For this year, having gained his second Dally M medal and best halfback in NRL, and with 6 entries in second-row forward, Johnathan Thurston deserves to be on the notable halfback list. --KorgBoy

There's only supposed to be 5 entries and there are halfbacks who've been honoured by the Queen who aren't on this list, so Thurston can wait. The most important thing is for this list to remain subjective.--Jeff79 (talk) 08:16, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Notable (position)s include:

I'm thinking it might be a good idea to reach a concensus on some kind of criteria for what 'notable' means for these lists. In my opinion the lists are too long and they continue to get longer as people come along and add more. Also people just add their favourite players regardless of whether they're truly notable. As the length increases the meaning of 'notable' becomes more diluted. Rather than this being a subjective decision of editors, why don't we make it more objective? I propose that inductees into the Rugby League Hall of Fame qualify as 'notable'. Also recipients of the RLIF Golden Boot Award can be added. Dally M Medal, Man of Steel Award and Clive Churchill Medal winners, as well as Test team captains may also be possibilities. That's not to say that ALL players that fall under these categories should be added. But if they are added they won't be removed. What do others think?--Jeff79 20:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

That's pretty much what we did on the equivalent union page except that there is one IRB hall of fame. I agree with this suggestion and the awards that you mention.GordyB 22:10, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there really needs to be any more than five examples per position. I've reduced it to this number which I expect may cause some controversy. However all names appearing in the notable lists on this page pass at least one of the criteria above except Steve Walters (Hooker), Glenn Lazarus and Shane Webcke (Prop). The pickings were slimmer for hookers and props. Walters, Webcke and Lazarus were all widely considered the world's best players in their positions during their respective eras. The lists are by no means set in concrete. Cases for other individuals replacing those listed in the article are open for discussion on this page. If they hold some records and have good wikipedia articles that will certainly work in their favour. Trying to have a nice international mix of players is good too I think. But I think going over five reduces the effectiveness/relevance of the lists. Just my opinion though.--Jeff79 00:04, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Added Martin Offiah to make up five wingers. Few could argue that being a Member of the Order of the British Empire doesn't qualify as notable I think.--Jeff79 01:19, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I've added a comment to the article to discuss future changes on the talk page. Comments can dramatically cut down the number of edits that need to be reverted.GordyB 10:36, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Cool. Add two notable non-Australian props if you like. I guess New Zealand's Ruben Wiki? Apparently he's the most capped international of any country.--Jeff79 19:18, 15 May 2007 (UTC) Added Wiki.--Jeff79 20:19, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Who's more famous: Brian McTigue or Cliff Watson? Watson has a better article but it says he's second only to McTigue.--Jeff79 20:20, 15 May 2007 (UTC) Added Watson on the strength of his article being better.--Jeff79 20:32, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Replaced Willie Mason with Denis Betts and Shane Webcke with Jamie Peacock for a more international mix, and both Betts and Peacock have won significant accolades as outlined above.--Jeff79 19:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Still need at least one notable non-Australian hooker.--Jeff79 21:12, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Seriously guys keep Shane Webcke, I've noticed someone keeps adding him and he get deleted. He is omne of the 3 greatest props ever and there up there (Arthur and Glenn)why not Shane? Who cares about having English and Australians equal you cant keep Shane Webcke out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.113.234.47 (talk) 04:45, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I delete it because nobody bothers to discuss what changes should be made to the list, since you have I will leave it for Jeff to decide.GordyB 13:06, 1 October 2007 (UTC

Being a devout Queenslander and Bronco, you'll have no argument from me that Shane Webcke is one of, if not the greatest prop of all time. But as I've outlined quite clearly above, I'm trying to take personal opinions out of the equation. Who cares about an international mix? Gordy and I do. You'll have to address what's already been stated and agreed upon above. Again, the whole idea is to remove subjectivity.--Jeff79 10:33, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Why isn't Darren Lockyer on the five-eight list? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.111.146.108 (talk) 10:45, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Because he won the golden boot award, the clive churchil medal and all but one of his premierships at fullback.--Jeff79 (talk) 11:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

this page is highly biased, Im not keith senior's biggest fan but he has been an outstanding centre over the years. Obviously some aussies seem to disagree. Tukogbani

Who do you want him to replace? All the others there are inductees of the Rugby League Hall of Fame. Senior, while a great player, isn't. Subjectivity eliminated.--Jeff79 (talk) 13:01, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Senior is a very good player but he isn't one of the game's greats.GordyB (talk) 14:00, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Fair does, can't argue with that but where on this page does it mention the hall of fame? I think someone should explain on the article the induction of players. .Tukogbani (talk) 19:35 (GMT) 18th July 2009

Four Aussies and one Welshman in the hookers isn't really balanced. I left in Terry Newton there coz I'm tired of reverting it. But I'm not sure if he's the most notable English hooker. If anyone who knows the English game better can recommend a more notable hooker, please do so.--Jeff79 (talk) 15:58, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Lee Jackson? also an international, held (maybe still does) the world record for the fastest try. I think you need to keep reverting changes that haven't been discussed though Jeff. It seems to be an IP - could you ask to have the page protected in some way by an admin so that only registered users can edit. LunarLander // talk // 16:37, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I am going to add Paul Sculthorpe to the notable Loose Forwards section, as he has been one of the greatest players of the Super League era

Could there not be a notable players section for players who come off the bench consistently and make an impact such as James Roby, Karmichael Hunt, Iafeta Paleaaesina.Ymron (talk) 07:39, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

"Many notable locks, such as Brad Fittler or Paul Sculthorpe in recent years, have also played at five-eighth, as the roles can be very similar." Brad Fittler was a notable lock? I would say it is much more accurate to say he is a notable five-eighth who occasionally played at lock. Both the Panthers and the Roosters chose him as a five-eighth in their respective lists of "all-time greats". He only won grandfinals as a 5/8th. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GermanicusCaesar (talk • contribs) 04:23, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. Besides, I don't see too many locks throwing cut-out passes or kicking in general play these days (in the NRL anyway). But I think there's a bit of truth to this historically. Wally Lewis also played lock before becoming a five-eighth.--Jeff79 (talk) 08:14, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Criteria?

For me, we need to make sure the greatest players (historically) in each position are in, and have a spread across the most significant countries. If we are going to stick with around 5 in each, I think there should be no more than 2 Brits, no more than 2 Australians, usually at least 1 New Zealander and possibly one from another country (Puig Aubert, van Vollenhoven etc). Halls of fame, immortals and teams of the century make sense, but there are always going to be exceptions. Although we need to be open to making changes, I think we need to discuss and agree here, and then just revert any changes that aren't discussed. A big problem for me in these lists is recentism - are we listing notable players who have played the position or notable players now? If all the players in one position have played in the last 25 years, I think we have a problem. Some of the suggestions that come up have been ridiculous - James Roby?? --hippo43 (talk) 11:49, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Agreed.--Jeff79 (talk) 08:14, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Pivot

Australian match commentators and media sometimes refer to either the five-eighth or halfback as the 'pivot'. I'm not sure which one it is. I think it might be the halfback. This might be worth a quick mention in the relevant section.--Jeff79 23:50, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Not a term in use in the UK but I believe it to be the five-eighth as the term means "fly half" in union.GordyB 08:28, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Just read some news articles that used it with regard to five-eighth. I'm going to insert a mention.--Jeff79 05:06, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Flags and representation

I was think of adding each player's represntative rugby league in but I was thinking more along the lines of how it is done in rugby union positions. The problem I have with the flags is that the Aussie and Kiwi flags are difficult to tell apart when full-sized and impossible when minaturised. I also think whether a player played for Queensland or New South Wales is worth noting (though Yorkshire or Lancashire probably isn't).

With British players, it gets complex Iestyn Harris has a British flag while Billy Boston has a Welsh one. I am pretty sure that both players played for both Wales and Great Britain. I haven't checked the lists thoroughly but it is possible that some of the players with an England flag next to them may never have played for England (because Great Britain would have been the only option back then).

I suggest a format like this:-

Iestyn Harris (Wales and Great Britain).GordyB 11:37, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I put the flags in more to show where a player is from. I always avoid all the crap that goes with trying to show who they represent (through the grandfather rule or whatever, which I find rather farcical). I put a British flag next to Harris because it wasn't clear. I guess citizenship doesn't change between Wales/England/etc. If a player grew up in Scotland but represented Great Britain, I'd definitely put a Scottish flag next to his name to show that sometimes people from Scotland become famous rugby league players. If Hazem El Masri were on the list, I'd put a Lebanese flag icon, because that's where he's from. Conversely, if Kevin Campion were on the list, I would not put an Irish flag next to his name. That's really the spirit in which I added them. Also, from a purely aesthetic point of view, I think the flags add a nice bit of colour. I think the rugby union page doesn't look as good. If someone wants to know more about which teams the players represented they can click on them. The Australian and New Zealand flags are easy to tell apart. The Australian has a white star under the Union Flag but the New Zealand doesn't (granted it's a little harder to spot when they're small like that).--Jeff79 18:12, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Iestyn grew up in England but represented Wales (his family being Welsh). That's the trouble with this, being consistant with El Mazri would require you to an England flag there. Perhaps you should scrap the Welsh and England flags and just use British ones.GordyB 19:00, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

First Reciever

Does this usually refer to the halfback? I've never been really sure about it. I hear it mentioned alot in commentary. My guess is it's the player that recieves the ball from the dummy-half most frequently. I had a feeling that might be the halfback. If this could be confirmed it should be mentioned in this article and/or Playing rugby league.--Jeff79 20:30, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Deleted original reply because it was wrong. First receiver is whoever the dummy half passes to, second reciever is whoever gets it next.GordyB 10:18, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Do you know if it's typically the halfback?--Jeff79 19:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

In a perfect world, scrum half / halfback should be first reciever and the stand-off / 5/8s the second receiver.GordyB 19:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Quite frequently the first receiver will be a forward taking a hit-up early in the tackle count. But I think when people talk about first reciever it's later in the tackle count. I had a feeling it was typically the halfback, but I thought with the five-eight being nicknamed the pivot, that it would make sense for him to be first receiver too, as the direction of the attack "pivots" on whether he decides to go left or right. Maybe these days both of "the halves" could be referred to as 'pivot' and/or 'first receiver'. I guess it's hard to be conclusive.--Jeff79 19:48, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Just Thought I'd add my discussion on this - 1st receiver isn't a 'typical', 'numbered' position in Rugby League, mainly because ANY player could theoretically be the first receiver. In most sides it is the Halfback, but most sides play 'sides' nowadays with the halfback on one side of the ruck, and 5/8 on the other acting as 1st receivers. In some cases it might be the lock or fullback (Jim Dymock and Jason Smith are two notable locks who were good first receivers.) Also - isn't it receiver instead of reciever? i before the e except after c? 124.188.129.48 15:10, 18 September 2007 (UTC)Lets try this again, sorry about the above unsigned post.Weststigersbob 15:12, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Here's an example of what I'm talking about. In this case it meant halfback: http://newsstore.fairfax.com.au/apps/viewDocument.ac?page=1&sy=smh&docID=SHD0305259PTOR2KHPI7 --Jeff79 (talk) 15:17, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

The article could cause confusion but I believe is probably due to the journalist trying to add more detail to the story. The writer has been told that the player has been moved to the role of first receiver, changing the dynamic of the team and the responsibilities of the player, and has added further detail by showing that the player has been in different positions in the past. I think it's probably down the a lack of attention to detail. LunarLander // talk // 15:44, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not imagining it. Maybe it doesn't happen in the Northern Hemisphere, but Australian commentators often substitute the term "first receiver" for "halfback". This is proof of it.--Jeff79 (talk) 16:07, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

According to this website halfbacks are positioned "so as to be in place as first receiver."--Jeff79 (talk) 16:12, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Notable players

Since people keep adding to / altering the list of notable players I propose simply noting which players are in the UK and Australian hall of honours. This has two advantages a) it is NPOV b) it will make the list easier to maintain rugby union positions uses this system and is more easily maintained. Any thoughts / objections?GordyB 12:56, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm starting to lean more and more this way, Gordy. I am fond of the flagicons though as it communicates immediately a level of internationality. Australia and New Zealand also have 'teams of the century' named, which I think are at least on a par with Halls of Fame.--Jeff79 (talk) 14:03, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Thats a good proposition but a lot of people wouldnt agree. It says about them having to be retired for 5 years. Tukogbani —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tukogbani (talk • contribs) 12:58, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Position names redirecting to Rugby union positions

Quite a few positions, for example if you search for 'Scrum half', redirect straight to the rugby union positions page. Should we try to have this changed to disambig. pages? LunarLander // talk // 12:45, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree - good idea. --hippo43 (talk) 13:01, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Yep, sounds good.--Jeff79 (talk) 13:02, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Questions

As a Rugby League newbie, there were a few areas in the article that raised questions, that I'm hoping someone appropriately knowledgeable might be able to edit the relevant section to add clarity / remove said confusion:

Wing

What does "solid under a high ball" mean?

Good at catching kicks LunarLander // talk // 10:28, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Centre

"Traditionally centres were categorised as 'inside' (nearer the stand-off) and 'outside' (nearer the wing), however the modern trend in rugby league for the last 20 years has been for centres to play left and right side, partnered with their respective wings."

Call me thick, but I didnt really get that.

Read it more slowly! (and look at the team formation diagram) LunarLander // talk // 10:28, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Hooker

What does "strike for the ball" and "line-out" mean? Maybe there's another page we can link these to?

Trying to gain possession of the ball moving it with your feet. A way to restart the game after the ball has gone out of play - it gets thrown in and players from both teams try to catch it. LunarLander // talk // 10:28, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Prop Forward

What does "position stand up in the tackle" mean?

Exactly what it says in the text: "may either go down quickly when tackled and look for a quick 'play the ball', or try to stand up in the tackle, fend off defenders and offload the ball to a supporting player." Try to remain on their feet so they can pass the ball to a team mate to carry on the move.LunarLander // talk // 10:28, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Second-row Forward

What does "taking the ball up" mean?

Run at the other team. LunarLander // talk // 10:28, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

What's a "break"? (Probably just needs a link to some other page?)

Breaking through the other team's line of defending players. LunarLander // talk // 10:28, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

This has been quite useful to read because the article should explain things in a clear understandable way to people new to the sport - thanks. There is an article called List of rugby league terms that you might find handy to add entries to, request entries for, link to entries. P.S. don't forget to sign your talk page comments using ~~~~ LunarLander // talk // 10:28, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Removed unsourced material

The article has been tagged for a year as needing better references. since then it has grown by nearly 30%, without the referencing being improved. I've removed the material below as I don't consider it accurate, and it is all unsourced. Essentially it is some editors' opinions of what each player does and what each should be. While some of it may be true, it all needs to be sourced or it can't go back in. I'm happy to discuss any of it. In my opinion, some of this is so general as to be meaningless ("a good scrum-half is one who uses options effectively" - so is a good centre, or a good prop, or a good snooker player etc) and some is too specific, without any supporting sources ("Often, the substitute hooker has greater acceleration with the aim of providing impact by running from the dummy-half position." Says who?) --hippo43 (talk) 12:29, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Scrums only form a small part of game time. For most of the game other formations are used. When the team is defending, players are often spread across the field in a single line, with the fullback and sometimes a couple of other players behind the rest as a second line of defence. When the team is attacking, players are placed according to the attack strategy being used.

Prior to 1989, most Australian teams, with the exception of the international team, used a different numbering system. The numbers for the backs were the same, but the lock/loose forward would be number 8, the second rowers were 9 and 10, the prop forwards were 11 and 13 and the hooker was 12.

Backs are often the most creative and evasive players on the field, preferring fine kicking, passing or manoeuvring skills, tactics and/or set plays to breach the defensive line in favour of brute force.

(Fullback) As they are typically positioned behind the first line of defence and have a view of the entire line, good fullbacks will give orders to the other defending players, alerting them to fill possible holes and weaknesses in the line. ... to take an offload and keep the ball alive, or to provide an overlap or a different angle of attack in the centre of the field. From their position behind the main line of players, good fullbacks watch for both teams' defensive deficiencies and offensive opportunities as they appear throughout a game.

(Three quarters) and are usually relied upon to breach the defensive line on their respective sides

(Wing) next to the sideline ... The wings also should have good footwork, enabling them to make breaks through the defensive line and because many scoring opportunities can be in close proximity to defenders and the touch line, also necessitating good spacial awareness and body positioning. In defence, wingers are usually encouraged to mark their opposite man and not be drawn towards the play, leaving overlaps. Often, late in the tackle count, wingers will drop back to aid the fullback in retrieving a kick. Because of this, wingers often play a prominent role in dealing with breaks by attackers through the defensive line, working with the fullback in mounting a cover defence. It is important for wingers to have reliable handling, as they are required to deal with attacking kicks under pressure, as well as finishing off moves for their team.

(Centre) and they are partnered with their respective wingers in both attack and defence ... The centres run out wide just inside the wingers, and work with stand-off in creating attacking plays. They have to be fast and athletic, and need the ability to handle, pass and tackle well. There are a variety of different skills required of a centre - some are agile and attempt to evade defenders, while others rely more on speed and power and some are creative players who attempt to find an opening for their winger through good handling skills. Most top centres mix a combination of these attributes. Centres are usually the most dangerous attacking players on their teams, and the majority of attacking threat usually comes from this position. In defence, centres are responsible for ensuring that their team is not outnumbered down one side - a centre will call other defenders across if he feels that there is an overlap out wide

The position name "centre" comes from the time in the 1880s when there was just one player in between the two wingers.

(The half-backs) are named thus as in 19th century rugby football they were positioned at the midpoint between the forwards and the three full backs used during that time. Originally known as halfway backs in the 19th century, this was shortened in time ... They are also generally relied upon to do most of the team's kicking both in attack and for field position.

(Stand-off) (named thus as they are positioned between the half back and the three-quarters) ... and should therefore be able to pass left and right-handed accurately. This player usually takes the ball as the second receiver in attacking moves and is responsible for distributing the ball to the backs, or for seizing an attacking opportunity by running himself. A good five-eighth is usually a good and accurate play kicker, has good communication with the halfback and the centres, is able to throw long cut-out passes and have the vision to create something in attack with the outside men. This player also needs to be quick and strong when running the ball, since they may be required to exploit gaps in the defensive line. They must be effective in making tackles as their position towards the middle of the field requires a heavy defensive workload.

(Scrum-half) ...is often the smallest player on the field. Usually, the scrum-half determines the direction of the attack and dictates the play for his side. The position is crucial in the organization of play and a good scrum-half is one who uses options effectively. The scrum-half must be quick of mind, agile, have good vision of who and where the ball needs to go to and be able to pass and kick well. The halfback is the player who feeds the scrum and runs around to collect it. Usually the halfback is the first to receive the ball and set up attacks from a 'play the ball' late in the tackle count, and has well-developed kicking skills.

In defense, the scrum-half has no set role and because of their attacking importance, these players are usually positioned out wide and are not expected to take up much of the workload.

(hooker) As virtually every play begins with the hooker, vision and passing skills are essential. Hookers are almost always the smallest of the forwards as their modern role closely resembles that of a backline player. The play-making role of the hooker has encouraged some teams to play a scrum-half in this role, and indeed many hookers are converted halfbacks.

Because of the hooker's position in the middle of the field, a high defensive workload is required. Many teams employ an additional hooker as one of their substitutes to ensure high standards of distribution throughout the game. Often, the substitute hooker has greater acceleration with the aim of providing impact by running from the dummy-half position.

(Props) Sometimes referred to as the "bookends", ... trying to force their way through defenders rather than between or around them. They are expected to make “the hard yards”; going forward while being gang-tackled by several opposition players

... Tactically prop forwards may either go down quickly when tackled and look for a quick 'play the ball', or try to stand up in the tackle, fend off defenders and offload the ball to a supporting player. Few prop forwards now play the full game time of 80 minutes - they are regularly substituted to keep them fresh.

When scrums were competitive their strength was key in winning possession. In the modern game their strength is more useful in the tackle or as a ball carrier. However, it is still possible for an alert prop to help a team win a scrum against the feed by striking for the ball in conjunction with a drive from the rest of the pack. Formerly, striking for the ball was primarily the responsibility of the hooker.

(Second-row forward) ... They are mobile, active players who make a lot of runs and do a lot of tackling, and often play a large role in setting the pace of the game. Second row forwards are frequently the tallest players in a rugby league team.

(There are different styles of play amongst second-rows. Some are quick, elusive players who can run out wide alongside the centres. Indeed, some second rowers are converted centres. There are also powerful, industrious second-rowers who serve as the workhorses of the team. Operating just off the middle of the line, often at second or third receiver, they are involved in seemingly everything – most tackles, taking the ball up, or supporting any break. Some teams like to send a good offloading second rower running down the same side as the dangerous running centres and wingers who feed off the space provided.)

(Loose forward) makes up the final 'row' of players..., "locking" them in place.

...A lock forward has the broadest role of any of the forwards. In defence their role is often to fill in any gaps on the defensive line and to work hard to make as many tackles as possible. As well as co-ordinating the defensive effort in the forwards, in attack they will often be a creative player with the vision and skill to set up play from first receiver, and provide another option for the half-backs. ... taking pressure from the halfback/scrum half. Loose forwards are also usually strong running players. ... However, some teams may prefer to simply employ an additional second-rower in this position in order to ensure defensive stability.

(Dummy half) , and the two terms are often used interchangeably ... given the speed of modern rugby league which can move the position of the ruck area greatly after every play

When the tackled player plays the ball by rolling it back with the foot, the dummy-half’s job is to pick it up and make a decision about the next play. Usually this means selecting which teammate will be the "first receiver" and passing off the ground. Sometimes, though, dummy-halves will pick the ball up and run themselves if they see an opportunity.

(Captain) The responsibilities of a captain (sometimes referred to as its "skipper"), such as deciding the course of action when awarded a penalty, may vary depending upon the independence they are given by their coach.

If a player or team is persistently penalised for the same offence, the referee may choose to issue the captain of that team with a final caution. If this is not adhered to, the referee will often send the offending player to the sin-bin. Also, during bad-tempered matches or incidents the referee may speak to both captains in an attempt to calm the situation down.... However, in the professional game, reserve officials are now usually present at matches.

Notable Players section

I've removed the 'Notable Players by Position' section - it is all unsourced and is given undue weight - this was intended to be an article about RL positions, not a list of notable RL players grouped by position.

There was consensus for a while that we would include a handful (no more than about 5) of historically notable players (ie, not Shaun Briscoe) balanced across the major RL countries, after each position section. Somehow it got spun out into a separate table that will only grow and grow. I can't find any discussion here about expanding these, and there are now as many as 9 for each position. There is no explanation in this section as to why these players are supposedly notable, and no references given for each one.

I propose we revert to listing 4 or 5 genuinely notable players after each position, and discussing all additions here. If they can be referenced, even better. There is no need for flagicons (per WP:MOSFLAG), dates of birth etc - if readers want to know more about a particular player, they can click through to that article. --hippo43 (talk) 13:01, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

This was Jeff79's baby. I didn't particularly agree with his idea of selecting 5 notable players but as it was basically only him and me editing this page, I went along with it as with so few editors there wasn't enough opinions on the best way to move forward. We reverted many edits to back to Jeff's original picks. I don't think either of us have the energy to continue doing this.

There was a similar situation on the rugby union equivalent with people adding in A-team players as being notable. The situation was resolved by sticking to players who were in a hall of fame. I suggest we should do the same here.GordyB (talk) 19:52, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

I've got no objection to including a small number of example notable players, but we should stick to Wikipedia criteria, rather than use another body's - the halls of fame have their own selection biases. If a reliable source says 'Player X is a notable RL centre' or similar, then we could include them; if Player X is in one of the halls of fame, then we could say as much. --hippo43 (talk) 20:44, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

For a while now I've been convinced that Gordy's idea is probably the best option. Just hadn't put it into action. Plenty of related discussion above about criteria for inclusion (if we opt not to just use governing bodies').--Jeff79 (talk) 09:18, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Let's make it a forum. Anyone can add anything they like. And Hippo and Jerf79 can continue tidying up the obvious rubbish. B. Fairbairn (talk) 09:38, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Only kidding. You are right. The page was becoming too full of personal perspectives. Notable players shoud not have been added in the first place. It is too open to opinion. Even links to Halls of Fame are topical. It should really be just Rugby League positions, not Rugby League players. B. Fairbairn (talk) 10:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

(ec, and probably redundant now)Anyone can already add anything they like. I have two concerns.

First, the recent change of format. There is a difference between listing some notable centres, when we're discussing centres, and separately listing a load of (maybe) notable players by position. Adding a section titled "Notable Players" is exactly what I'd like us to avoid. This article is about rugby league positions, not about rugby league or rugby league players. There is definitely a place in Wikipedia for an article or list about notable RL players, and I'd probably contribute to it, but IMO this isn't it. I'm totally open to discussing this; it's consensus here that will determine how we handle where to put the section and how many entries to include.

Second, how to decide who is included: we have to use the same criteria here as elsewhere on wikipedia. If an editor wants to add someone as a notable centre, say, then provide a source that says as much, or reach consensus here. If a respected writer discussing the matter directly writes, say, "Paul Newlove is one of the greatest RL centres" then we have grounds to include it, with a citation.

So my preference is for a few examples after each section - inline notables, if you like, rather than a section of footnotes - and for a handful of genuine notables, unambiguously recognised as playing that position, and chosen by consensus or by reliable sources. --hippo43 (talk) 10:12, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. The table had to go. I still stand by my original suggestion of no more than 5, and Hippo's of a mix of nationalities where possible.--Jeff79 (talk) 10:15, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Other roles

The team's kicker seems to have been overlooked. A perfect addition to the "Other roles" section I think. Anyone disagree?--Jeff79 (talk) 12:04, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Agree. Seems obvious now you mention it. I've made a start on goal-kicker; tactical kicking might be a bit more ambiguous. --hippo43 (talk) 12:27, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Fullback (rugby)

I turned Fullback (rugby) into a DAB a few weeks ago. I removed it from this article when fixing the other links, but have just noticed that it has been put back in. My reasons for changing it were that nothing in the article was not explained in either this one or the equivalent one at Rugby union positions and if someone was searching for a rugby fullback position then they would probably be looking for either this article or the rugby one. Also all incoming links should have really gone to one of these articles. If you think the artcile should exist then we can discuss that, but I am not sure that it is useful to have a see also going to a DAB page. AIRcorn (talk) 11:09, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Props

When creating player articles, for Props I've adopted the prefixes Left- (#8) and Right- (#10), in rugby union this would equate to Loosehead (#1) and Tighthead (#3). I've noticed an anonymous user has been changing Left- and Right- prefixes in certain player articles to Open side and Blind side, is there an agreed northern/southern hemisphere naming convention? Best Regards. DynamoDegsy (talk) 14:25, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

My recent edits

I just finished cleaning up the article, particularly the references. Please contact me if you have any concerns regarding my changes. —DocWatson42 (talk) 05:01, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

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