Talk:Minister-president

Why a minister-president is not (!) a prime-minister

1) A Prime MInister is the political leader of the government in a monarchic system, while the monarch is formally the head of his government and his minister is the first servant (what is the meaning of minister)! In a republic the minister is servant of the People. 2) The German minister-president is not only the head of the government but the head of state (German federated states are sovereign states). This becomes obvious by three privileges, exclusively being part of a head of state : a) the minister-president holds the right of grace (amnesty) b) the right to bestow decorations and c) to be the representative in- and outside the country. Consequently the Minister-president holds the first place in precedence in its country, while a premier minister doesn't.

Consequence: Sometimes we should form a neologism, a new word instead translating (The Latin dominated languages like English have to do it always, while German can build a compound word (compositum).) This new word has to be spread by dictionaries and encyclopedias

Older

in interpreting we have these discussions all the time, and as for the interpreters "minister-president" seems inadequate, i have to agree on that. As mentioned below, appropriate translations are "state premier" or "premier", a "prime minister" is the head of a federal government, e.g. Tony Blair, and therefore should not be used to describe the head of a state government. I cannot imagine a native speaker outside of Germany would understand the term "minister-president". One has to be careful with using plausible translations like "governor" in a US-context, even though it probably describes best what is meant, but i guess a governor has slightly different functions than a state premier in Germany and thus could add to the confusion. Imagine Henry Kissinger at a meeting asking: "Since when do they have governors??" "The Hessian Minister-President" sounds like if a German native had translated it into English using the Langenscheidt.

Why aren't they called Prime Ministers? I haven't read the term Minister-president anywhere outside Wikipedia in an English language text.

to answer your question, actually they are sometimes, which just adds to the confusion. The homepage of the government of Brandenburg clearly states the Ministerpräsident as "Prime Minister of Brandenburg", whereas Bavaria uses "Minister-President". I will try to find out the correct usage..

ps: I have just received an email from the Hessian State Chancellery. I will quote: "Nach nochmalieger Nachfrage in der Abteilung Protokoll in der Hessischen Staatskanzlei wurde mir mitgeteilt, dass die offizielle englische Bezeichnung für Hessischer Ministerpräsident wie folgt lautet: "The Hessian Minister-President"." So I hope this clears some confusion. Gryffindor 21:02, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

For the German "Ministerpräsident" I really find "Minister-President" in English hard to swallow. It may be acceptable, but to me, "Premier" seems the best translation, as it avoids confusion with "Prime Minister" (often head of a whole country, e.g. the British Prime Minister). "Premier" is also used to describe similar positions in English-speaking countries, e.g. state Premiers in Australia. Is "Premier" okay too? It seems to be common enough in English-language reports about Germany, e.g. at Deutsche Welle. --Geoffrey Miller 01:59, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Plural

Shouldn't the plural be "Minister-Presidents", because of the hyphen? EVen if it doesn't, it sounds better and makes more sense than, "Ministers-President"... -Alex 12.220.157.93 03:37, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

on plurals

No, I think it should be Ministers-President, just as we have Governors-General and Attorneys-General. "General" is adjectival here. We pluralise the noun (Governor) and do not decline the adjective (General), hence "Governors-General". I would say that "Minister-President" represents a similar grammatical structure, so on this view "president" is adjectival, that is to say it carries the meaning of "presiding" or "first" (prime / premier!).

• since when exactly is President a adjective? If you are right theres a big need in fixing the english language due to lack of semantic logic. This would totally mess up the rules of word allocation.

German: ONE Minister, TWO Minister English: ONE Minister, TWO Ministers

So taken correctly you would have to call the function Ministers-President(singular) and Ministers-Presidents(plural).

Don't take your language poorer then it actually is.

• I have to agree that Ministers-President is, if you want to translate the singular with Minister-President in the first place, just wrong as a plural. The word Ministerpräsident is a compound. As such, it is short for Präsident der Minister (president of the [council of] ministers). "Presiding Minister" would be Vorsitzender Minister.

on correct translation of political terms

A number of things complicate the matter of translation of the German term "Ministerpräsident" into English.

One is the difference between the German political system and the political systems extant in the countries of the English speaking world. A second factor is the differences in terminology that exist within English, even when describing roughly the same office (in this case the head of government). Drawing an analogy with US practice, an American would tend to use the term "Governor" when talking about the "Ministerpräsident" of a German (or the "Landeshauptmann" of an Austrian) "Bundesland" whereas an Australian or Canadian would use the term "Premier". (The same problem probably applies in reverse: an Austrian talking about politics in English-speaking countries might naturally refer to the "Landeshauptmann" of an Australian state or Canadian Province, while a German would say "Ministerpräsident"). So the translation depends very much on your target audience. The same problem applies when translating "Bundesland". An Australian or American would probably refer to the "state" of Saxony while a Canadian would probably call it a "province".

In answer to the question of why it's not (always) appropriate to refer to "Minsiterpräsidenten" as "prime ministers" in English: In English speaking federal polities the term "prime minisiter" is really only used to refer to the head of the federal government and not the head of a state/provincial government. To speak of the "prime minsiter" of Saxony, Alberta or Queensland sounds as if you are talking about an independent country when in fact you are referring to a subunit of a country. So I would go for "premier" over "prime minister" when talking about the "Minsiterpräsident" of a "Bundesland" etc. But if you're using "Ministerpräsident" in German to refer to the head of government of a country (eg France, Italy) then you *would* say "prime minister" in English.

My inclination is to say that "Minister-President" is acceptable as a *term of art* in English but for most purposes you would use the word "premier" [or perhaps "governor" if you are talking to a US audience] when describing this office. The term "minister-president" would, however, still be useful in some circumstances. After all we still say "Bundestag" and "Bunderat" in English as terms of art. And although we can translate "Kaiser" as emperor, we often refer to the "Kaiser" as a term of art.

• Pro: only because a bavarian source calls it Minister-President does not mean that term is applicable somehow. The bavarian government and bavarian politicians are the worst source refering to english correctness. Besides, I think "Presiding Minister" would be a well explaining term.
• Contra: We do not need to distinguish between English Latin (Prime Minister) and German Latin (Minister-President). This article should be deleted. Ulf-S. 14:23, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
• It is probably true that we rarely use the term "prime minister" to refer to heads of subnational entities, though certainly historically it's not unknown (e.g. Prime Minister of Northern Ireland). I have no problem with the translation "prime minister"; perhaps it is because I am British. But "premier" sounds fine too. I've never known the term "minister-president" be used in English, except when spelt "ministerpräsident" and treated as a borrowing from German. ~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.155.65.123 (talk) 23:10, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

A Ministerpräsident most certainly is no "governor", as a governor is elected by the people while a Ministerpräsident is elected by a majority of the Landtag. In theory, the Landtag can replace the Ministerpräsident at any time. This prevents populists and political outsiders from reaching the highest government office. A Schwarzenegger would never have been possible in Germany. Reibeisen 16:16, 14 May 2008

Of course the constitutional paragraphs to the minister-presidents in Germany are somewhat different that those of US governors. Likewise they were different in the case of Reichskanzler Prinz von Baden compared with Reichskanzler Scheidemann. That's no real argument, it'd stop any translation. "Governor" is actually the best translation in my humble opinion. - If it is said "Prime Minister" would make the freestate of Saxony seem independent, the answer is: the better, that's about the general idea of German federalism. The Germans actually (in a hybris?) call every head of government of other (non-presidential) states Ministerpräsidenten, be it Italy, be it the Netherlands, Spain, Sweden or whatever, and only tradition stops them to do the same to the Prime Minister of Great Britain (and, most of the time, to the Prime Minister of France, though I wouldn't be too sure about that). Saxony is not a subdivision of Germany, Germany is a composition of, among others, Saxony. (And here's a Bavarian speaking, i. e. someone of a people that is generally supposed not to like the Saxons, which however doesn't apply to me.) --84.154.99.205 (talk) 12:01, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

There are basically six choices you have when rendering the German Ministerpräsident (or its equivalent in another foreign language) into English:

(1) Use the original foreign language term as a term of art, in which case you would normally italicise it in English (which is the usual practice when using foreign terms in English).

(2) Use its anglicised equivalent "minister-president" as a term of art (no need to italicise though since it has been anglicised).

(3) Use the English term "prime minister".

(4) Use an English term such as "chief minister" or "first minister"

(5) Use the English word "governor".

(6) Use the English word "premier".

Which you opt for will depend on context.

In ordinary modern English usage the term "prime minister" is not used at the sub-national level. Hence, the UK has a prime minister but Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales each have a "first minister"; and similarly Australia and Canada each have a "prime minister" but Queensland and Alberta each have a "premier" and the Australian Capital Territory and Northern Territory each have a "chief minister". That we do not use "prime minister" below the national level is normal modern English usage (the old use of "prime minister" in respect of Northern Ireland is a historical exception to modern English usage; today Northern Ireland has a "first minister").

I would suggest that in most instances there is no real need to use (1) or (2) (as there are perfectly good English language equivalents for everyday use) unless the context demands the use of the foreign word (or its anglicised equivalent) as a term of art. So if I were a journalist writing an article about the Netherlands I would refer to the country's "prime minister" and not its "minister-president". If I were writing a textbook in English on the government or constitutional law of the Netherlands or of a German Bundesland I might want to use the term "minister-president" (or Ministerpräsident) as a term of art, but even then I would also use more common English terms such as "prime minister" or "premier" in addition to my use of minister-president as a term of art.

When it comes to the Ministerpräsident of a German Bundesland, the situation is complicated by translating these terms for an American audience without paying much attention to the underlying system of government and how that differs from that which prevails in the United States. In the United States, the "top politician" of a state is the "governor", so it is understandable that many Americans would naturally use the word "governor" when talking in English about the Ministerpräsident of a German Land. But I think its use is inaccurate and I don't just say that as an Australian whose "natural" inclination would be to translate Ministerpräsident here as "premier" based on my own country's English usage. I say that, rather, as a constitutional lawyer attuned to the differences between parliamentary and semi-presidential system of government on the one hand and presidential systems on the other hand. There is, after all an underlying reason why American states have "governors" and Australian states and Canadian provinces have "premiers". This is not simply a linguistic difference along the lines of "french fries" versus "chips" where two different terms are used to refer to essentially the same thing; rather, the difference in English terminology is reflective of two different constitutional offices (just as "prime minister" and "president" at the national level are very different offices).

As the German wikipedia article on Ministerpräsident says, "als Ministerpräsidenten oder Premierminister bezeichnet man allgemein das politische Amt des Regierungschefs in parlamentarischen oder semi-präsidentiellen Staaten" -- which translates into English as: "the term Ministerpräsident or Premierminister [prime minister] generally refers to the political office of the head of government in pariamentary or semi-presidential states" (emphasis added; my translation).

In the United States -- both at the federal and state level -- a presidential and not a parliamentary or semi-presidential system of government prevails. In a US state, the executive branch (of which the governor of a state is the chief) exists and presides separately from the legislature, to which it is not responsible. Under a parliamentary system (which includes the states of Australia, the provinces of Canada as well as the German and Austrian Länder), however, the ministers of the executive branch (which includes the premier or Ministerpräsident) are drawn from the legislature and are accountable to that body, such that the executive and legislative branches are intertwined. The "governor" of a US state is the constitutional head of the executive branch, quite separate from the legislative branch; he is not a member of the legislature; he does not have to command the support of a majority of the legislature (or its lower house in the case of bicameral legislatures) and cannot be forced from office because he fails to command the support of a majority of the legislature. The "premier" of an Australian state or a Canadian province as well as the Ministerpräsident of a German Land, on the other hand, is a member of the legislature and must secure the support of a majority of the legislature (or its lower house) in order to hold office; he can, furthermore, be forced from office by a simple vote of no confidence on the floor of the legislature.

So while it may be natural to use the term "governor" when talking to an American audience about the Ministerpräsident of a German Bundesland, this English usage does not accurately reflect the underlying differences in the system of government. For all of the foregoing reasons I would therefore suggest that in contexts where accuracy is required (such as an encyclopaedia article or a text book on government), the best English translation for Ministerpräsident (etc) is "prime minister" at the national level and "premier" at the sub-national level. Of course in some contexts the use of "minister-president" or Ministerpräsident (etc) may also be acceptable as a term of art. And similarly in less formal settings where conveying the distinction between presidential and parliamentary systems of government is not so important then the use of the term "governor" for a specifically American audience may also be acceptable (although even here I would avoid it; if Americans can handle the use of the word "premier" in respect of parliamentary systems in English-speaking countries [eg Australian states and Canadian provinces and territories]] I don't see why they can't also handle the more accurate "premier" in respect of parliamentary systems in non-English speaking countries [such as German Bundesländer] rather than resorting to use of the more familiar but less accurate term "governor"). Apodeictic (talk) 18:08, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Minister-President of the Netherlands

It should be noted, though, that the tilte of "Minister-President" is neither uniquely German nor confined to heads of government of sub-national entities: The Netherlands also have an "Minister-President", and the German terms has its origin in a time where Germany consited of several independent states. – Mind that each of the four constituent countries of the Kingdom of the Netherlands have a Minister President, though, indeed it does seem that in the Native English such persons are usually called Prime MinstersThW5 (talk) 05:17, 3 June 2022 (UTC).

Minister-President in Germany discussion and vote

Main pages: Talk:Christian Wulff § Prime Minister once again, Talk:Christian Wulff § Prime Minister vs. Minister-President, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Germany § Ministerpräsident#Discussion, and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Germany § Ministerpräsident#Vote

A discussion and vote on the topic is going on right now. Kingjeff (talk) 03:34, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Why does wiki call all german Ministerpräsidenet minister-president exept the Lower Saxon one ? (who is calld prime minister on wiki)

Is he special? does he have a different title? 95.208.187.120 (talk) 17:02, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

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Original research

Much of the section on Germany appears to be unsourced original research of an evaluative nature. This includes the comparisons between German ministers-president and

• the governor of a U.S. State
• the premier of an Australian state
• the premier of a Canadian province
• the constitutional order of South Africa.
• the Chancellor of Germany
• the President of Germany.

I would suggest all the unsourced stuff be removed. --Boson (talk) 13:44, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Split proposed

This article is more about the term "minister president" than the concept of head of government of a federated state (e.g. Germany) or the different concept of head of government of a sovereign state (e.g. Netherlands) .

The section with a list of German state heads of government makes it rather top-heavy and unfocused. I would suggest splitting off the list of the heads of German states (together with some explanation) into a separate article – something like the article List of current United States governors.

Detailled discussion of the differences between the different German states could also be moved there, preferably without the unsourced original research. --Boson (talk) 13:44, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Good idea! If nobody disagrees over the next days/weeks, I could start with the article. The discussion of the differences has to be sourced by the state constitutions, which I wanted to do anyway, but this will take a bit of time, as these are sixteen different documents. Alektor89 (talk) 09:18, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

I had the same thought when I first read this article. Have fun! Pelirojopajaro (talk) 09:26, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

Ok, I started to work on the article in my sandbox. If that's convenient, I will implement the revised article, when finished,...but this will take some time, I guess, complicated business ... Alektor89 (talk) 12:56, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks! Of course, any discussion of differences based on the constitutions would have to be careful to avoid synthesis. --Boson (talk) 13:43, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

I agree. I think the best way will be, to be strictly descriptive. I have studied the constitutions over the last days and have made the following table, which shows the most important differences between the 16 state constitutions with regard to the Ministers President or their equivalent in Berlin/Bremen/Hamburg. The table should be part of a section "Constitutional roles and powers". Each state has a source-link to a digital copy of the respective state constitution in their current forms.

State	Title	election threshold	recall procedure	position in cabinet	power to shape the cabinet	right to grant pardon	minimum age	other provisions
Baden-Württemberg	Minister President	majority of members	constructive vote of no confidence	guideline competence	cabinet appointments subject to parliamentary approval, the state parliament may recall individual cabinet ministers with a two-thirds majority	yes	35
Free State of Bavaria	Minister President	simple majority	none, has to resign, if a cooperation with the state parliament is not possible anymore	guideline competence	cabinet appointments subject to parliamentary approval	yes	40
Berlin	Governing Mayor	simple majority	vote of no confidence, but if the state parliament does not elect a new Governing Mayor within 21 days, the former officeholder is reinvested automatically	guideline competence	full	no (whole cabinet)	18 (de facto)
Brandenburg	Minister President	majority of members (first and second ballot), plurality (third ballot)	constructive vote of no confidence	guideline competence	full	yes	18 (de facto)
Free Hanseatic City of Bremen	President of the Senate and Mayor	simple majority	constructive vote of no confidence	ceremonial precedence	none, all cabinet members are elected and may be recalled by the state parliament	no (whole cabinet)	18	may not be a member of the state parliament
Free Hanseatic City of Hamburg	First Mayor	majority of members	constructive vote of no confidence	guideline competence	cabinet appointments subject to parliamentary approval	no (whole cabinet)	18	may not be a member of the state parliament
Hesse	Minister President	majority of members	vote of no confidence	guideline competence	dismissal of a cabinet minister is subject to parliamentary approval	yes	18 (de facto)	members of noble houses, which have reigned in Germany before 1918, are ineligible for office
Lower Saxony	Minister President	majority of members or plurality, if the state parliament does not elect a Minister President in 21 days and does not dissolve itself thereupon	constructive vote of no confidence	guideline competence	cabinet appointments subject to parliamentary approval	yes	18 (de facto)
Mecklenburg-Vorpommern	Minister President	majority of members or plurality, if the state parliament does not elect a Minister President in 28 days and does not dissolve itself thereupon	constructive vote of no confidence	guideline competence	full	yes	18 (de facto)
North Rhine-Westphalia	Minister President	majority of members (first ballot), simple majority (second and third ballot), runoff (fourth ballot)	constructive vote of no confidence	guideline competence	full	yes	18	has to be a member of the state parliament
Rhineland-Palatinate	Minister President	majority of members	vote of no confidence	guideline competence	full	yes	18 (de facto)
Saarland	Minister President	majority of members	vote of no confidence	guideline competence	cabinet appointments and dismissals subject to parliamentary approval	no (whole cabinet)	18 (de facto)
Free State of Saxony	Minister President	majority of members (first ballot), simple majority (following ballots)	constructive vote of no confidence	guideline competence	full	yes	18 (de facto
Saxony-Anhalt	Minister President	majority of members or simple majority, if the state parliament does not elect a Minister President in 14 days and does not dissolve itself thereupon	constructive vote of no confidence	guideline competence	full	yes	18 (de facto)
Schleswig-Holstein	Minister President	majority of members (first and second ballot), pluralitiy (third ballot)	constructive vote of no confidence	guideline competence	full	yes	18 (de facto)
Free State of Thuringia	Minister President	majority of members (first and second ballot), pluralitiy (third ballot)	constructive vote of no confidence	guideline competence	full	yes	18 (de facto)

Alektor89 (talk) 23:27, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

References