Talk:List of states with limited recognition

Ambazonia, Western Togoland, West Papua, Biafra

All of these are groups that declare independence, and control some territory. 77.44.68.140 (talk) 10:38, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

These are de facto states, not states with limited recognition. These states, along with some breakaway regions in Myanmar (such as the Wa State), have received no diplomatic recognition from the international community. Maybe we can create another article named List of de facto states for them? 2001:8003:9100:2C01:D015:BF4E:5E4C:B752 (talk) 03:22, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Somaliland was listed here as 'states with no recognition' before the deal with Taiwan was signed. However, it was only Somaliland, and not other 'de facto' states (that were still in there war of independence). Still, a 'self proclaimed states' article should be added to fill the gap between micronations and limited recognition states.

ASmallMapleLeaf (talk) 21:10, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Why is the Republic of Artsakh removed from the list?

Okay, I know the Republic of Artsakh will cease to exist from 1 January 2024, but it still has nearly a month of life left. Why we removed them early? As of today, the official website of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Artsakh is still up and running, this country is still alive.

Links:

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/nagorno-karabakh-republic-will-cease-exist-jan-1-2024-nagorno-karabakh-2023-09-28/

https://www.nkr.am/en/general-information 2001:8003:9100:2C01:110B:5058:3F5A:723B (talk) 00:37, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

I have to agree, there is no need to jump the gun. M.Bitton (talk) 22:47, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

@Selfstudier: @M.Bitton: good on both arguing over capitulated non existing state. Beshogur (talk) 12:49, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

I don't see the harm in waiting for the official date? Until then it exists, at least legally. Selfstudier (talk) 13:13, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

This list does not include entities that exist only in their own legal framework without actual de facto existence, unless they are recognised by a UN member state. Artsakh did not meet this second criteria for the entirety of its existence, and no longer meets the first. CMD (talk) 17:02, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

I am not going to argue over something less than a month if that's what people want :) Selfstudier (talk) 17:10, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

You guys are just cruel to the Republic of Artsakh. It still has three weeks of life left. 2001:8003:9100:2C01:D015:BF4E:5E4C:B752 (talk) 03:15, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

In fact, it hasn't abolished itself (also available on the relevant RFE/RL sites). The reason: the leader has said his decree of last September doesn't have a legal base. (Limited) Reports in Armenian press have indicated the so called parliamentary council is still operative (albeit in a restricted fashion). Of course, they don't have any territory under control, so it is all pretty much an empty shell and they basically currently just serve the interests of the Artsakh refugees. Nonetheless the "state" hasn't been abolished on paper, while on the ground it surely is gone. Labrang (talk) 18:59, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

With regards to Artsakh, as the state no longer controls any territory, even if it did continue to exist on paper, it would be more suited to the Government-in-exile page than this page. Dn9ahx (talk) 20:12, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Chinland

On the page for the Myanmar civil war (2021–present) it says that Chinland was established as a separate state on the 6th of December and it looks like it controls much of its claimed territory Pierce spacem (talk) 12:25, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

In general the Myanmar militias claim to be fighting for federal statehood. If they aim for independence, we would want some good quality sources asserting they could be considered a de facto state. CMD (talk) 13:17, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

This instance does appear to be slightly different. A quick search gave me this article: https://myind.net/Home/viewArticle/chinese-backed-rebels-in-myanmar-declare-new-country-on-indias-eastern-border.

Does seems a bit questionable in parts though (mainly relating to China/India).

ASmallMapleLeaf (talk) 16:26, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Other sources:

• https://web.archive.org/web/20231226164950/https://www.irrawaddy.com/opinion/guest-column/the-first-chin-written-constitution-a-new-template-for-self-determination.html
• https://www.frontiermyanmar.net/en/chin-nationalism-blossoms-on-northwestern-front-against-junta/

ASmallMapleLeaf (talk) 19:06, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

it seems to be legit from what i can see, either way, we had artsakh on there when it claimed to be part of armenia, we also had somaliland when it had no recognition. i'd definitely support its addition Gorgonopsi (talk) 20:57, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Artsakh did not claim to be part of Armenia, Somaliland's purported recognition is unclear. The longstanding consensus on this page is that a clear source is needed establishing that a polity is effectively a de facto state, a news report on a declaration of independence is insufficient. CMD (talk) 02:37, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

They had it on maps everywhere, eitherway we also have Cook Islands, Niue, Republic of CHina, all of which do not claim to be independent. Gorgonopsi (talk) 11:18, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

For the first two we have sources where they are recognised as states, for the last we have many sources noting its effective de facto statehood. CMD (talk) 01:10, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

we had somaliland on the list when they wern't recognised, Gorgonopsi (talk) 00:01, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

They meet the second part of my comment. CMD (talk) 07:43, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

This seems better suited for inclusion in the list of rebel groups that control territory. WMSR (talk) 01:28, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

South Korea

Looks like South Korea can be removed from the list and the map, as with the recent closure of the reunification bureau, North Korea also recognized South Korea (from the published Kim Jong Un's speech on the subject: "Today the Supreme People's Assembly newly legalized the policy of our Republic toward the south on the basis of putting an end to the nearly 80 year-long history of inter-Korean relations and recognizing the two states both existing in the Korean peninsula." and "Since our Republic definitely defined the ROK as a foreign country...."). --2A02:8070:A182:7560:0:0:0:3222 (talk) 16:29, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Are there secondary sources which interpret these North Korean actions in this way? Alaexis_¿question? 08:04, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/north-koreas-kim-calls-change-status-south-warns-war-2024-01-15/

'Kim said the constitution should be amended to educate North Koreans that South Korea is a "primary foe and invariable principal enemy" and define the North's territory as separate from the South.'

So, when the North Koreans change their constitution to define its territory as separate from the south (which probably won't take long...) I suppose South Korea can get taken off the list. 180.231.250.240 (talk) 12:04, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Afghanistan

Seeing as the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan controls Afghanistan de facto. And the internationally recognized government is in exile. I think it should be listed in some capacity. Its similar to Taiwan in many respects. Afghanistan really has no recognition at the moment. Am I wrong? At the very least the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan is a state that has no recognition. And it controls territory and around 40 million people. 108.39.196.77 (talk) 18:40, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Wa and Chin states, Kurdistan, and Azawad

Neither of the these states are listed here, and though the latter does ot control major cities, other ones do have more or less of control over their claimed territory and functional government. I suggest they should be added to the article. 176.36.187.17 (talk) 04:02, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Moroccan authority over western Sahara recognized by israel

the section for western Sahara says only the Us and Morocco recognize western Sahara as part of Morocco, but from what I can see This is outdated As Israel now does too [1]https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/7/17/israel-recognises-western-sahara-as-part-of-morocco [2]https://www.reuters.com/world/morocco-says-israel-recognises-its-sovereignty-over-western-sahara-2023-07-17/ Rad da writer (talk) 16:30, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Transnistria

It probably should not be here as merely an occupied territory - [3], and it is already described as such on proper page, i.e. Russian-occupied_territories#Transnistria_(1992–present). My very best wishes (talk) 02:56, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

It did declare its independence, regardless whether it has since been under a Russian pseudo-occupation (of feeble force, really). Otherwise we should start removing South Ossetia and Abkhazia too, being considered (more strongly) Russian occupied. We should be careful for the political correctness being pushed onto these areas as if they are solely occupied by Russia and as if they don't have a root in separatism. Which they do have, which has been exploited by Russia. There are two angles to these regions, and they are both true/valid. Labrang (talk) 18:44, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

South Korea

Is there a source that North Korea formally recognizes the Republic of Korea? Seems very doubtful from what I could dig up…

RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 03:35, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Chechen Republic of Ichkeria and Republic of Ingushetia status

Ukraine had recognised Chechnya on October 18th 2022 and Ingushetia on February 23 2024, they should be listed as States recognised by at least one UN member. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SOROSHENKO (talk • contribs) 13:23, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

No, Ukraine has never recognized the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria; the bill to recognize it was never approved, and the resoution that eventually was approved merely called Chechnya "Russian-occupied territory." See Ukrainian recognition of the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 19:58, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 April 2024

X=As it is. Y=Remove Sovereign Military Order of Malta. Because it's not a country anymore. It no longer exists. 80.4.77.150 (talk) 17:29, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. I couldn't find any sources saying that it was dissolved, and its official website has been updated quite recently. Liu1126 (talk) 18:46, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 April 2024

As of december 2023 a new state has declared independance from Myanmar/Burma, its named Chinland I genuinly believe it should be added to this list as an independant state with no recognition at all but still an independant state Sneakier (talk) 14:27, 10 April 2024 (UTC) Add Chinland to the list of unrecognised states please as well I noticed its considered as a rebel state but idk if it truly is sorry if I wasted your time I just love geography so much...

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. M.Bitton (talk) 15:17, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Puntland status

Unlike the Gaza Strip and the regions of Iraq and Syria that are prevented from uniting due to situations such as wars, Puntland is an autonomous federal entity that declared itself temporarily independent, but in Somalia there is a declared intention of rupture (although temporary). Jvbignacio9 (talk) 22:31, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

I have reverted the inclusion. The temporary nature is a good sign that this is not secession. "We are not declaring independence", so it does not fit on this list. CMD (talk) 22:43, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Rfc on removing Armenia, China, Cyprus, Israel, Palestine, and North Korea from this article

Should we remove Armenia, China, Cyprus, Israel, Palestine, and North Korea from this article? WikiCleanerMan (talk) 16:24, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Do you support or oppose removing Armenia, China, Cyprus, Israel, Palestine, and North Korea from this article?

Prior to this discussion, I had removed the main category of this article from Armenia, China, and Israel articles before being reverted for the Israel one where the editor cited this article as to why Israel has limited recognition. However, I would argue that none of these countries have limited recognition. The articles list two theories as to what counts for a country having recognition. Wikipedia is not run by theories. We shouldn't be beholden to ideas or opinions and label them as fact when there is no universally agreed-upon rule of thumb or rule regarding which of these two theories should be the basis of a nation holding recognition. What we should constitute a nation having recognition is when a majority of countries have recognized another formally. Perhaps a two-thirds majority rule in which a nation has been recognized by two-thirds of nations would mean the current roster of UN member states having widespread recognition.

We should bear in mind that diplomatic relations are a form of recognition, but recognition doesn't imply bilateral relations. Despite territorial disputes between two or more claimants, there is recognition of the political entity as a nation and thus shouldn't be the basis of how recognition is built if they have been recognized by a majority of states.

• Armenia: Not recognized only by Pakistan. One UN member out of 193 member states. One single nation not recognizing Armenia can't make Armenia as having limited recognition. Even Armenia recognizes Pakistan as a nation and has done so for many years. Even two non-member states of the UN, Holy See/Vatican City and Palestine recognize Armenia. So Armenia has vast recognition.
• China: Not recognized by 11 UN member states and Vatican City. Only 12 entities don't recognize China and instead have recognized or have relations with Taiwan. Taiwan has limited recognition as the vast majority of countries have formal relations with China.
• Cyprus: Same with Armenia. One UN member state, Turkey, out of the 193 member states does not recognize Cyprus as a nation. Cyprus maintains relations with both the Vatican and Palestine. Cyprus has vast recognition.
• Israel: According to the article, 28 UN members don't recognize Israel. But the rest do. From the International recognition of Israel article, "As of December 2020, it has received diplomatic recognition from 165 (or 85%) of the 193 total UN member states". This means that a vast majority of countries recognize Israel. Therefore, it can't be limited if the majority of countries recognize Israel.
• Palestine: Similar to Israel. From the International recognition of the State of Palestine article, "As of April 2024, 140 of the 193 United Nations (UN) member states have recognized the State of Palestine." Therefore, Palestine has received recognition from the majority of countries.
• North Korea: As stated in the article, South Korea, which maintains a long dispute as to who is the legitimate Korean nation/republic, is the sole UN member that does not recognize North Korea. It maintains relations with 157 countries if the Foreign Relations of North Korea article is up to date. And all 157 are UN members. By this same logic, the article could state South Korea has limited recognition because North Korea views South Korea as an illegitimate Korean nation/republic and itself as the sole claimant of all land in the Korean peninsula including what is all of South Korea. So since both countries view the entire peninsula as belonging to them, we should ask ourselves why SK is not on this list. This could be a case of NPOV violation which NK is added probably due to a negative image, which NK does have, but the addition of North Korea tied with the land dispute with SK not included makes it a suspicious case of perhaps a viewpoints of bias. Wikipedia should not choose one over the other as it would imply bias and bias is what we have to avoid especially on a topic such as this.

I hope I made my arguments clear as to why these six countries should be removed from this article and why the mainspace category for this article does not apply to their respective articles. Please let me know if there is anything I missed. WikiCleanerMan (talk) 16:24, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

The RFC question needs to be neutral so to make things work and not confuse the bot, sign the question at the top and then add a Discussion section heading right after that and put the rest of your argument there as a !vote. Selfstudier (talk) 17:11, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Might have been a good idea to have had an RFCbefore discussion, you could still do that by removing the RFC tags, wouldn't prevent you from running the RFC at a later time if you still wanted. Selfstudier (talk) 17:13, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

This has been a bugbear of mine for a time tho no-one else seems bothered by it. From my perspective, all of the countries in this article should be listed in Category:States with limited recognition but they are not although they were once upon a time if memory serves.

Then folk on the cat side started arguing that this one or that one, China say, should not be in the cat, apparently based on the way the countries are divided into sections in this article.

Now you want to remove some from this page so that those will also disappear from the cat and leave those that only the cat folk believe are truly "limited".

It's not really supposed to be that way imo, it's the other way around, the cats should follow this page.

I haven't gone into all the history about how this page definition of limited came about but it was a very long and involved process that included a discussion of the issues you raise. Selfstudier (talk) 18:48, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

 Note: This RfC is not neutral, therefore, I suggest you retract it and start a discussion (per WP:RFCBEFORE). M.Bitton (talk) 20:05, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

• No, but a general question about the pages notability may be in order... Why do we need to have a stand alone list for a topic which doesn't lend itself well to a list? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:55, 27 April 2024 (UTC)