Talk:Shitō-ryū

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Untitled[edit]

Why doesn't this page explain anything about this kind of Karate? Knowing about history is useful, but most people want to find about the way they fight ...

I am adding this Cubbi 21:12, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This page needs some pictures, and atleast the logo.

I see someone added Shitokai logo, I'll try to add at least two more branch logos that I've been a member of Cubbi 21:12, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This style of karate is based on self-defence, not fancy moves like you see in the movies.Real karate must work for everyone, not just super fit atheletes, and Shito ryu takes the best of Okinawan karate and blends it together.Using close, medium and long range techniques,any body shape will benifit from it.Find a good club and talk to the teachers. Sensei Toplis Shogun Karate Club [1]

Man and his work[edit]

Shouldn't we place Mabuni Kenwa's life story into Kenwa Mabuni and leave Shito-ryu to the style itself? --Cubbi 13:33, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Shorin-ryū parenthood and Shinpan Shiroma (Gusukuma)'s role[edit]

After reading this article, I have found it lacking in the history of the style. There is no mention of its heritage from Shorin-ryū (Mabuni's first teacher was Itosu). Also, there is no mention of Shinpan Shiroma (Gusukuma). From the little I have read on the subject, Shiroma and Mabuni were friends who started Shito-ryu together. They called their styles Mabuni Shito-ryu and Shiroma Shito-ryu. I'm not sure if Shiroma's lineage is still practiced, but his students who continued his style are Ishikawa Horoku and Koshin Shiroma (as in the lineage chart in the book, "Okinawan Karate: Its Teachers, Styles and Secret Techniques," By Mark Bishop). I don't have this book, but have read a few pages from it online. I think this article should also mention Shiroma and his role - even if Shito-ryu karateka do not consider him to be in their lineage. Otherwise, this article should probably renamed to Mabuni Shito-ryu to reflect its actual content. I do not know much of the history of Shito-ryu, so I do not want to make these major changes to the article. --Scott Alter 06:52, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Good find, in all 15 years of Shito-ryu practice in three different organizations, nobody ever mentioned Shiroma when talking about the history to me. Renaming the main article to "Mabuni Shito-ryu" would be wrong since current understanding of "Mabuni Shito-ryu" is 'shito-ryu as practiced by the Mabuni family', as opposed to Motobu-ha, Hayashi-ha, Tani-ha, and so on. From what I am reading online, Mabuni opened his dojo in Osaka and taught there, while Shiroma remained/returned in Okinawa and started teaching there ten years later, essentially creating an Okinawan branch of Shito-ryu.. Very interesting, really! What we should do is write up a more expansive lineage of which existing dojos came from which, ultimately leading up to Mabuni's school and Gukusuma's school. BTW, I am finding online a mention of a couple of katas - Gukusuma-no-Chinto and Gukusuma-no-Passai --Cubbi 18:19, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Samurai?[edit]

The article states that Mabuni was descended from the famous Onigusukini samurai family. I find this hard to believe, since Mabuni and Onigusukini are both very Okinawan-sounding names, and only Japanese (i.e. from the Home Islands, not the politically semi-independent and culturally and ethnically distinct Ryukyu Kingdom) were samurai. Was he perhaps descended from a pechin family? LordAmeth (talk) 00:20, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. Every single reference in google for "Onigusukini" is the sentence repeated in this wikipage, and I have no idea how is it written in kanji. Notwithstanding, personally I think the whole paragraph about Mabuni's life should go to Mabuni Kenwa. --Cubbi (talk) 05:43, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm being bold and deleting the reference. A Google search for "おにぐすきに" yields zero results; that doesn't mean the family name doesn't exist, but even if it does, and Mabuni is genuinely descended from that family, I think it exceedingly unlikely that it was a samurai family. If someone else has a reliable source to cite, they can put it back. LordAmeth (talk) 14:59, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, searching for the reading of some old family name is bound to be fruitless. But the japanese wiki page for Mabuni doesn't mention it either (and, in fact, is much more brief: born, studied, studied, opened school, named Shito-ryu, died, one book cited as reference). So I agree. --Cubbi (talk) 15:25, 18 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe "Onigusukini" is a mistranslation of "Uni-Ufugusuku"; Uni-Ufugusuku was a pechin and karate master. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 03:02, 21 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Image[edit]

I have a better image for the Shito-Ryu logo, but i cant upload it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SlitherX (talk • contribs) 10:17, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

the current Sosa Kai organization link is http://shitoryusosakai.org/ (page to be updated and improved) we kindly ask averyone to abstain to make any remarks or comments in regard to Menkyo Jorge Sosa in this page Hanshi Sosa, trained under Mabuni's son and has dedicated his life to the martial art and bushido and out of respect we all should abstain from making senseless remarks about his person and his school sincerely AL — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.194.235.133 (talk) 15:23, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

wikipedia issue with link info; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shit%C5%8D-ry%C5%AB ; section Branches: Sosa Kai[edit]

wikipedia issue with link ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shit%C5%8D-ry%C5%AB ; section Branches: Sosa Kai
                                                                                       December 17, 2010

Dear members of Sosa-Kai:

I hope the Budo energy is with you always and accompanying you in your daily activities with a lot of success.

We recently had an unfortunate situation with the Ni-Chunin Wayne Somerville, who now runs the Dojo "Martial Arts Lethbridge, after the Go-Chunin Jim Kambeitz leave the city and no longer could take care of the Dojo. As a matter of immaturity was carried out educational activities that caused unexplained incidents in his time, which brought a reaction very surprising to us from the Ni-Chunin Somerville in recent days.

This organization wishes to make clear that there was no malicious intent on the part of Mr. Hanshi Jorge Sosa to support a group of students who were expelled and removed from the organization of the Ni-Chunin Somerville. Students, who were expelled, gave Hanshi very sincere reasons and left much doubt about this penalty. When the Ni-Chunin Somerville, reported what had happened in his Dojo, Hanshi could realize that there was a mistake by the Instructor. That kind of training is not in the practice of Ninjutsu without a correct knowledge to prevent accidents. Ninjutsu is practiced in part from jujitsu, which is the techniques on the floor such as Osaekomi-Waza, Kansetsu-Waza and Shime-Waza, in this case, use the "Shime-Waza, techniques of strangulation, but this is only done with advanced students, since any accident occur, the instructor must be able to apply resuscitation technique called "Katsu-Waza", of which, the Ni-Chunin Somerville unaware of it. The Hanshi proceeded to call attention to the Ni-Chunin Somerville, and that notice of this incident, several months after that had happened. Hanshi offered Katsu classes at the Ni-Chunin Somerville to help prevent another accident like that happened. Hanshi told Ni-Chunin Somerville, that he would take over the class for student that Ni-Chunin Somerville mentioned in the website, as that would require careful attention to how to teach students a greater degree. In addition, Hanshi asked the Ni-Chunin Somerville clarification on what happened during that accident, and this never happened. I want to clarify that Hanshi has experience in Jujitsu and he is a Judo Black Belt.

At all times, Hanshi, offered technical assistance to Ni-Chunin Somerville, but only get a few workouts and after many excuses, the Hanshi cancelled the training. We also want to make clear that both the Go-Chunin Jim Kambeitz and the Ni-Chunin Somerville, knew that the expelled student, which he mentions, he was training with Hanshi, so more so it was extremely importance that the Ni-Chunin Wayne advised of what happened in his Dojo as soon as possible. It should be noted that the Ni-Chunin Somerville retired several young students of the practice, arguing that they were immature people, but the real essence of the Martial Arts are children and young people, as it is our responsibility to train and educate them conveniently to be good human beings in this world that we live.

Hopefully this will make clear the attitude of the Ni-Chunin Somerville Wayne do in public statements, which sought, to discredit our organization. We are human beings, we seek the good of all, and we do not judge people, only God has that right. We like to listen and to help the best and if you can solve any conflict in our organization, it will be of great satisfaction for us.

Our organization wishes Ni-Chunin Wayne every success in his work with his Dojo and hopefully in the near future he can find the Satori.

Any concerns that exist within our members please let us know to give you the best support, with an open heart, kindness and the right justice.

"If we were to define a true warrior, I would say ... He who has the wisdom not to judge Whoever does not accept the fear, One who fights to help others One who is faithful to the death to defend the good." 

                     Beyond the Light

“ In God we Trust “


Hugo Sosa Menkyo Kaiden


In response to these inaccurate statements:

-- We recently had an unfortunate situation with the Ni-Chunin Wayne Somerville, who now runs the Dojo "Martial Arts Lethbridge, after the Go-Chunin Jim Kambeitz leave the city and no longer could take care of the Dojo.

  • This happened long before Go-Chunin Jim Kambeitz left, we both decided to cut ties with Sosa-Kai.

-- Mr. Hanshi Jorge Sosa to support a group of students who were expelled

  • There were two students removed, one First Brown that Hanshi told us to expel, and the other White belt for disrespect. It was evident that Hanshi's mind was going as he couldn't remember the names or app's from one private class to the other.

-- Hanshi told Ni-Chunin Somerville, that he would take over the class for student that Ni-Chunin Somerville mentioned in the website, as that would require careful attention to how to teach students a greater degree.

  • NEVER HAPPENED, Hanshi told us he would continue teaching our expelled student Karate as it was less dangerous -

and just over a month later the first brown was given his Black belt in Nin-Jutsu and he was told to keep it a secret.

-- It should be noted that the Ni-Chunin Somerville retired several young students of the practice, arguing that they were immature people

  • NEVER HAPPENED, as the young people left we limited the age to 18 years of age and older due to club insurance requirements, we are advertising for youth classes to start as soon as we have enough interest.

-- In addition, Hanshi asked the Ni-Chunin Somerville clarification on what happened during that accident, and this never happened.

  • Clarification was given twice before we left Hanshi, once with his daughter present and once with his grandson present.... We did not want to leave Sosa-Kai, but we could not work under an organization run by Hanshi Sosa Sr., he made promises and then broke them... We have no disrespect for Sosa-Kai just it's leader...

IT'S TIME TO START TELLING THE TRUTH HANSHI... IF YOU CAN REMEMBER WHAT THE TRUTH IS...


You told me stories of other students who turned against you for no reason... Well I think we all know there was a reason, you gave us a one...

You always talked to us of honor Hanshi, how can you have honor when you lie so much...


Sensei Wayne Somerville and Go-Chunin Jim Kambeitz

Opening ceremony section[edit]

Seems that we have an edit war about whether to include the opening ceremony section. In my view, lack of references alone is not a reason to delete this. The content doesn't seem controversial, so it's not a major problem if it's unreferenced. D O N D E groovily Talk to me 04:52, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If there were a reference, we could establish what is unique to the Shito ryu opening ceremony. I do not see what distinguishes the Shito ryu ceremony from other similar Japanese martial art opening ceremonies. I do not see how this unreferenced section improves the article. jmcw (talk) 09:23, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Take a look at [2] section 'Contemplation MOKUSO' or at Ogasawara-ryū. jmcw (talk) 09:39, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps this content should be moved to that article? I still don't see any reason to delete it, but if it belongs in a different article instead, so be it. D O N D E groovily Talk to me 12:10, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
A reliable secondary reference to the Opening Ceremony would resolve this. jmcw (talk) 13:58, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Reverting IP edits[edit]

You reverted a good-faith edit by an IP editor twice - the second being this http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shitō-ryū&curid=321554&diff=503504867&oldid=503024438

A week or so ago, my brother was talking about how he never bothers editing Wikipedia because all of his edits got reverted. I don't think he was vandalizing. We want IP editors to contribute, sign up, and edit frequently, and seeing their contributions repeatedly deleted pushes them away. Your action, as far as I can tell, actually violates policy. From Wikipedia:Verifiability "However, in practice it is only necessary to provide inline citations for quotations and for any information that has been challenged or that is likely to be challenged." As you have provided no evidence that this material is likely to be challenged, I am restoring the IPs content. Perhaps he'll come back, see his content still there, and decide to make more contributions. Ego White Tray (talk) 06:38, 22 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Honorary ranks awarded by Japan Karate Federation should not be confused with true ranks, as true ranks of 10th Dan are rarely, if ever, awarded and Honorary Ranks are given out in large numbers, mostly to esteem members of Japanese society who are not involved with martial arts[citation needed]."
"It should be noted that Japan Karate Federation does not recognize Seitō Shitō-ryū as a legitimate style and therefore Dan ranks in Seitō Shitō-ryū are not recognized or accepted in Japan[citation needed]."
I find these statements likely to be challenged and have removed them. I do not think they improve Wikipedia. I do not think that the IP who added them improved Wikipedia. I do not think you have helped the career of the IP by restoring this un-sourced cruft.
Could I make a constructive suggestion? Take your brother to the local library and select a martial arts book from a reputable author. Read the book together. I am sure you will find fascinating information: add this to Wikipedia. jmcw (talk) 11:59, 23 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
To clarify, my brother didn't add this information, I was just using him as an example of editors we lost because excessive reverting. I don't know who did add this, and have no horse in this game other than keeping newcomers unbitten. Also, when someone restores info that you deleted, simply deleting it again is called edit-warring. You should know that. Now you post on my talk page saying it's "cruft" and "likely to be challenged" but don't back up those statements. A style not being recognized by the Karate Foundation is hardly at all "cruft". When the info was restored, you should have posted on the talk page explaining why you removed it, saying more than just "cruft". Blindly re-deleting it is not how we operate here. Ego White Tray (talk) 12:23, 23 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have understood that this IP was not your brother. I appreciate [3]] that you counseled the new editor. My original comment was "rv good-faith edit: Reference, please!": I do not see this as biting new users. The statements added by the IP were not complementary. The martial arts articles of Wikipedia are often collections of "things I heard in my dojo". I feel I improve Wikipedia by removing these things. YMMV jmcw (talk) 12:37, 23 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Would you be okay if I moved this entire conversation to the article talk page? Ego White Tray (talk) 12:42, 23 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. jmcw (talk) 12:44, 23 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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History in US and England[edit]

Hi, could the Shito-Ryu page bit ellaborate on it's history in USA and England? Because it is mostly about the Japanese side of things and I can't find much about it's presence in the Western world. Like who are American masters that bought the style to the country and when were the earliest dojos established and such? 2001:14BB:90:DD9:ADAD:8A5B:48AE:FFA8 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:07, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This sounds good, but of course there need to be reputable sources for that. So if the only sources are X/Y/Z club websites then it is unlikely that they are going to be considered notable enough to include. If there is a book/magazine etc. that details Shito-ryu outside Japan then please suggest them here and we can build them into the article. It is a 'big 4' style and the page should reflect that. Mountaincirquetalk 11:52, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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