Talk:Túrin Turambar

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GA Review[edit]

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Túrin Turambar/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: TompaDompa (talk · contribs) 17:49, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I will review this. TompaDompa (talk) 17:49, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:18, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

General comments[edit]

  • The "External links" section is empty.
  • Gone.
  • There are a couple instances of "Nienor", without diacritics.
  • Added.

Lead[edit]

  • "Turambar and the Foalókë", begun in 1917 – why both italics and quotation marks? The body also says "c. 1910" rather than 1917 (the article is included in Category:Literary characters introduced in 1917).
    • Fixed.
  • His epitaph, "Master of fate, yet by fate mastered", showed his inability to escape Morgoth's curse. – not in the body.
  • Removed.
  • the Finnish mythological poem Kalevala – I would give a brief indication of when this is from.
  • Dated.
  • the Volsunga saga – missing diacritics (this recurs in the body). I would also give a brief indication of when and where this is from.
  • Added and glossed.
  • Linked.
  • and structure and style, with Arthurian legend – this is a bit difficult to parse as part of the sentence it concludes, and according to the body this doesn't come from Tolkien. I would present it in a separate sentence, if at all.
  • Edited.
  • The lead and "Publication history" section both mention six works, but the infobox only mentions three. Is this intentional?
  • Fixed.

Publication history[edit]

  • Any particular reason the table is sortable?
  • Removed.
  • Sorted.
  • I would use the {{circa}} template.
  • Done.
  • prose version of "The Lay of the Children of Húrin" – presumably this means that it is a later version (since "The Lay of the Children of Húrin" is not described as a poetry version of the "Narn"). Do we know approximately when it was written?
    • UT page 4 says 1916–1917.
      • I'm confused. "Turambar and the Foalókë" is described as being the first version and written c. 1917. The "Narn" is described as being written 1916–1917 and being a prose version of "The Lay of the Children of Húrin", which in turn is described as being composed c. 1925. Surely the "Lay" is a poem version of the "Narn" rather than vice versa, then? And surely "Turambar and the Foalókë" must have been written earlier than the "Narn" if it is the first version? TompaDompa (talk) 21:20, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
        • Um, yes. I've deleted the gloss on the Narn as misleading. Both T&F and Narn are c. 1917; Christopher says his father was a bit vague on the dates, but clearly you're right that the Narn came after T&F, so I've set both dates to c. 1917 and readers can make what suppositions they like after that.

Narrative[edit]

  • This section is very long, significantly longer than the corresponding section of the article The Children of Húrin. Could it be condensed?
    • Trimmed it a bit. Since this is the story of the character, it needs the detail of Túrin's life, where the other article just needs an overview. Actually, re-reading that overview now, it's quite hard to follow without the additional structure that we have here in this article.
      • Sure, but sometimes it might be overly detailed. One example that caught my eye was the contrast between Túrin meanwhile joins a band of outlaws in the wild and eventually becomes their captain. in the article for The Children of Húrin and Túrin, unaware of this, flees westward, meeting up with the Gaurwaith outlaws in the woods south of the river Taeglin. He earns a place in the group by killing one of their best warriors. A year later, trying to save a woman's life, Túrin accidentally kills Forweg, the leader of the band, and becomes its leader. in this article. These passages cover the same events, and to my eye there is quite a bit of unnecessary detail in the latter. The "Fate after death" portion is also lengthier than I think is really motivated. TompaDompa (talk) 21:20, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
        • OK, I've shortened the outlaws tale a bit, but the fact that he gets there by accidentally killing the leader does seem ***rather distinctly relevant***, indeed Túrinesque, if I may be so bold as to coin an adjective. What might be too much for the book article can, as in this case, be rather definitely useful over here, in fact, as actions illuminate character.
        • Trimmed the fate after death a bit also.
  • protected by the Girdle of Melian – gloss.
  • Done.
  • and because of his kinship with Beren – this lacks necessary context.
  • Removed.
  • When after eight years – this is followed by a rather lengthy explanatory note about the (inconsistent/contradictory) chronology that I think falls on the wrong side of WP:WAF. I don't see a strong reason the exact number of years would be necessary to mention at all, so this issue should be possible to circumvent.
  • Fixed.
  • Beleg s cutting – typo.
  • Fixed.
  • fells in a swoon – falls in a swoon?
  • Fixed.
  • There Mablung – who?
  • Glossed.
  • "purification of Turambar and Vainóni (the original name of Niënor) who fare shining about the world and go with the hosts of Tulkas against Melkor (Morgoth)]." – are the parentheses in the original quote? Also, there is an unpaired right bracket.
  • No; removed.
  • "and so were all their sorrows and stains washed away, and they dwelt as shining Valar among the blessed ones”." – stray curly quotation mark.
  • Removed.
  • "Turambar indeed shall stand beside Fionwë [Eönwë] in the Great Wrack, and Melko [Morgoth] and his drakes [name of the dragons in Tolkien legendarium] shall curse the sword of Mormakil [name of the sword of Túrin]" – I'm guessing the brackets are not in the original quote. Assuming I'm correct, "Tolkien legendarium" should be "Tolkien's legendarium" (including the link) and "[Eönwë]" doesn't really clarify "Fionwë". If they are in the original quote, I would (in the spirit of MOS:CONFORM) change them to regular parentheses and reserve brackets for alterations to quotes.
  • Removed the bracketed glosses, they make it worse not better here.
  • Why are Elwing and Elros italicized in the family tree?
  • Removed.
  • Since "Elves" and "Men" are linked in the family tree, "Half-elven" should probably also be.
  • Done.
  • Done.
  • New comment: The elven-lady Nellas watches over Túrin at Melian's bidding, teaching him elven-lore. – "Elf"/"Elves"/"Elvish"/"Elven" is mostly capitalized in the article (e.g. the hidden Elven-realm of Doriath), but this is an exception. The family tree is also an exception. TompaDompa (talk) 09:52, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done.
  • Done.
  • New comment: killed by the orcs – every other instance of "Orc"/"Orcs" is capitalized. TompaDompa (talk) 09:52, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done.
  • New comment: brought to Ephel Brandir – gloss. TompaDompa (talk) 09:52, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done.
  • New comment: Morwen is lost – could this be rephrased to avoid the possible interpretation "dies"? TompaDompa (talk) 09:52, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done.
  • New comment: the river Taeglin – the link leads nowhere useful. I also noticed that the map spells it "Teiglin", but I suspect that's just an alternative spelling. TompaDompa (talk) 09:52, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fixed.

Analysis[edit]

  • Medieval and classical parallels – what the parallels have in common is not the time period but that they are all mythological. The Kalevala is neither medieval nor classical.
  • Mythological it is.
  • Resemblance of Túrin to figures from medieval tales can be confirmed by a letter which Tolkien wrote to Milton Waldman – this phrasing sounds a lot to me like WP:INTERPRETATION of a primary source, which could easily be avoided by rephrasing it as e.g. "Tolkien wrote of [...] in a letter [...]". It also doesn't really accurately reflect what the quoted passage says.
  • Rewritten.
  • who was also "cursed" in a sense, seduced his sister, brought ruin upon his family and slew himself does not use a serial comma, but with its complex temporal layering, history of manuscripts, and "overlapping story variants in both poetry and prose" does.
  • Fixed.
  • who was also "cursed" in a sense – I am unable to find this in the cited source.
  • Removed.
  • seduced his sister – the source says he raped her.
    • Fixed.
      • Is it really accurate to say that he "similarly" raped his sister (did Túrin rape Niënor)? As I understand it, the similarity is one of unwitting incest (could be phrased e.g. as "similarly unwittingly committed incest with his sister"). TompaDompa (talk) 18:09, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
        • Done.
  • Sigmund, the father of Sigurd in the Volsunga saga, resembles Túrin in the incestuous relationship he has with his sister. In Richard Wagner's opera Die Walküre (also drawn in part from the Volsung myths), Siegmund and Sieglinde are parallels of Túrin and Nienor. Further, Túrin parallels Sigurd, as both achieve great renown for the slaying of a dragon of immense power, in Sigurd's case Fafnir, in Túrin's Glaurung. – I am only able to find the Fafnir/Glaurung parallel in the cited source. Was some other source meant to be cited?
  • Tolkien's letter 131 covers most of it. St Clair 1996 ditto. Hoffman 2008 for the Wagner.
  • Done.
  • complex temporal layering – I don't think the meaning of this is obvious to the reader.
    • Reworded.
      • Is "interweaving of events at different times" really what Flieger means by "temporal layering"? I get the impression that it refers to the real-world history of how the story was developed. TompaDompa (talk) 18:48, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
        • Edited.
  • he was translating a lost Narn poem from the Elvish. – this is presumably meant to be parsed as "he was translating from the Elvish language a lost poem" rather than "a lost poem from the Elvish people was translated by him", with "Elvish" referring to a language rather than a people. Could it be rephrased to resolve the ambiguity?
  • Done.
  • I would link Richard C. West here, at first mention (currently linked below).
  • Done.
  • writes indeed that the tale "is one of almost unrelieved gloom" – did West indeed write that, or did West write that it is indeed like that? The placement of indeed makes it appear to modify "writes", which seems a bit odd to me.
  • Removed the 'indeed'.
  • Túrin and his sister will help in the final defeat of Morgoth after the end of the world – the source only says this about Túrin, though it says that they will both be cleansed of their sin.
  • Fixed.
  • West observes [...] – MOS:SAID. This goes beyond a plain observation.
  • Fixed.
  • whereby the character inevitably takes certain actions and suffers the consequences – if "the character" refers specifically to Túrin, spell that out. If it is meant more generally, use the plural form.
  • Fixed.
  • Giving a woman voice – huh?
    • Said 'A woman in wartime'.
  • Niënor is one of the main characters of The Lay of the Children of Húrin, Tolkien's "great saga" of the "Elder Days". – it is not clear to me what point this is meant to convey.
  • Removed.
  • Niënor and Turin are one of only four "couples whose love gets much space" in Tolkien's works – I would mention who the other three are for context. Also missing diacritics.
  • Done.
  • The Tolkien scholar Richard C. West described the story of Niënor's family as tragic and "of almost unrelieved gloom". – already mentioned above.
  • Removed.
  • stating that in its rendition in The Silmarillion, contrary to the author's original intent, "all glimmer of hope has been extinguished" – this lacks the necessary context that The Silmarillion omits the very end of the story, after the main narrative. That is what Whittingham refers to here. This should also cite both page 158 and page 159.
  • Done.
  • Whittingham is cited twice: once for page 150 and 154, and once for page 159. These could be consolidated and should at least be consistently formatted.
  • Merged refs.
  • She sees – the previous "she" refers to Niënor, but this refers to Holtz-Wodzak. I would use the name here to avoid (temporary) confusion.
  • Fixed.
  • His wife Edith Tolkien, like Níniel, had to let her husband go to an uncertain fate in combat while pregnant and in precarious circumstances. Tolkien himself, like Níniel, was unable to take part in combat himself for most of World War I due to illness. – these comparisons to Níniel do not seem to be made by the cited source.
  • Removed.

Summary[edit]

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

  1. Is it well written?
    A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:
    See my comments above.
    B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:
    See my comments above.
  2. Is it verifiable with no original research?
    A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:
    B. All in-line citations are from reliable sources, including those for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines:
    All sources are, as far as I can tell, reliable for the material they are cited for.
    C. It contains no original research:
    See my comments above.
    D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:
    Earwig reveals no copyvio and I didn't spot any instances of unacceptably WP:Close paraphrasing.
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:
    There are no aspects that immediately stand out as missing to me.
    B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):
    See my comments above.
  4. Is it neutral?
    It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:
    No obvious neutrality issues. Opinions are clearly distinguished from facts and attributed as appropriate.
  5. Is it stable?
    It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:
  6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?
    A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content:
    All media are public domain or use licenses that are acceptable per WP:CFAQ.
    B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail:

Ping Chiswick Chap. TompaDompa (talk) 22:16, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ping TompaDompa. Chiswick Chap (talk) 22:07, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is getting close to done. There are two remaining "old" comments that need to be resolved and a few new ones I just added. TompaDompa (talk) 09:52, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

TompaDompa - I think we're there now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:15, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed we are. Great job! TompaDompa (talk) 10:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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