Talk:Oliver Hazard Perry

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Former good article nomineeOliver Hazard Perry was a Warfare good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
November 23, 2011Good article nomineeNot listed

Untitled[edit]

The Army National Guard has a Camp Perry that is named after him. The location of this base is in Port Clinton, Ohio.

it is apparently attributed to him "We have met the enemy and they are ours" -- Oliver "Hazard" Perry Dwarf Kirlston today

Yes, that's correct. It's covered already in the article. He wrote that phrase in his official report on the Battle of Lake Erie. Jinian 16:23, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)

What about "Don't Give Up the Ship!" Something about his motto and his flagship transfer during the Battle of Lake Erie should be included. DirectorStratton 15:12, 21 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No. He didn't say that. That was James Lawrence who later died and his crew did, in fact, give up the ship. The flagship transfer is covered in the article on the actual battle, but if you'd like to include some here as well, be bold. Jinian 01:33, 22 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Minor edit: first, I found a period painting of Perry that looks better than the engraving/drawing posted previously. Second, the phrase DON'T GIVE UP THE SHIP was tagged to an article about a game with that title, when it should have been about the flag itself (there is no article about the flag). I have also capitalized the phrase as it is written on the flag. The painting of Perry also includes the flag. Carajou 05:42, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

born died[edit]

Was Born Agust 23. Died Agust 23. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.110.73.58 (talk) 00:03, 19 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

portrait[edit]

here is a public domain portrait of Perry, if anyone is interested (pub pre 1923)

http://books.google.com/books?id=4xcUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA253&dq=%22Henry+W.+Shoemaker%22+photo&lr=&num=20&as_brr=4&client=firefox-a&cd=2#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Congressional Gold Medal[edit]

The Medal itself should be an expanded a part of this article, with a photo of the medal. See Alexander Macomb (American general) for an example of how this was done. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 14:26, 26 September 2010 (UTC) Stan[reply]

Now that we have that neat portrait, we need a rendition of the Congressional Gold Medal in the article. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 18:49, 22 December 2010 (UTC) Stan[reply]

Barbary Coast[edit]

The Battle of Derne article has more on what he did in Tripoli.211.225.34.183 (talk) 03:38, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Lede[edit]

There's no need to list all of the campaigns on the Great Lakes in the lede, but I'd add a sentence or so about the dispute with Eliot as that gets a fair amount of coverage in the main body.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:18, 29 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Done. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:22, 29 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

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Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Oliver Hazard Perry/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Hchc2009 (talk · contribs) 20:36, 23 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

1. Well-written:

(a) the prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct;

  • " the son of Captain Christopher Raymond Perry and Sarah Wallace Alexander, a direct descendant of William Wallace." - It is slightly unclear if Sarah Alexander is the direct descendant we're talking about here; I wasn't sure I understood why this was significant in the article either.
  • " He was an older brother to Commodore Matthew Calbraith Perry who compelled the opening of Japan to the West by threat of force." - the lead needs to focus on the notability of Oliver Perry - being the older brother of another famous person isn't notable in itself, although it's no doubt worth mentioning in the main text.
  • "After supervising the building of a fleet at Erie, Pennsylvania, at the age of 27 earned the title "Hero of Lake Erie" for leading American forces in a decisive naval victory at the Battle of Lake Erie, receiving a Congressional Gold Medal and the Thanks of Congress" There's a missing "he" somewhere here.
  • " the fleet victory " - you haven't mentioned a fleet victory yet, only naval and campaign ones.
  • "the Commander of the USS Niagara, Captain Jesse Elliott" - a comma is needed after Elliott
  • " and both were the subject of official charges that were lodged." - you either need to lose the "that were lodged", or explain who lodged them
  • "So seminal was his career that he was lionized in the press (being the subject of scores of books and articles" - The "So seminal..." read oddly to me. You could easily replace the brackets with simple commas, which would make the sentence easier to read. Could you give a number for the books and articles (or at least an "over x" figure, since we know it is over forty (several score)).
  • "Early life" and "Quasi war" are both single paragraph sections - I'd strongly encourage these to be combined, as sections should usually comprise multiple paragraphs.
  • "His progression from being the subject of a court-martial for running aground to being a formidable commander who made a real difference has a striking parallel to the career of Admiral Chester W. Nimitz." - a single sentence paragraph, that feels like it could be combined with other text.
  • "At his request he was given ..." As the start of a paragraph and a section, you'll need to expand who the "he/his" is.
  • "Perry was named chief naval officer." - either this is a rank (e.g. "chief naval officer"), in which case it needs capitals, or it is the chief naval officer.
  • "In fact, Perry was involved in nine campaigns that led to and followed the Battle of Lake Erie, and they all had a seminal impact. " - you don't need the "In fact..." intro to this sentence
  • ""What is often overlooked when studying Perry is how his physical participation and brilliant strategic leadership influenced the outcomes of all nine Lake Erie military campaign victories:" - who is this quote from (you need an in-line explanation)
  • " Capturing Fort George, Ontario in the Battle of Fort George; Destroying the British munitions at Olde Fort Erie (see Capture of Fort Erie); Rescuing five vessels from Black Rock; Building the Erie fleet; Getting the ships over the sandbar; Blocking British supplies for a month prior to battle; Planning the Thames invasion with General Harrison; Winning the Battle of Lake Erie; and Winning the Battle of Thames." - if the article is going to say that he made a seminal contribution to all of these, the article needs to explain what and how.
  • "In his initial report" - to whom, on what?
  • "Charges were filed but were not officially acted upon." - does this mean they were unofficially acted upon?
  • "'Obverse -- bust of Perry facing right surrounded by Oliverus H. Perry Princeps Stagno Eriense. ~ Classam Totam Contudit; Reverse depicts a sea battle scene with inscriptions. - if these are a caption, they need to be in the caption for the image; if they're normal text, they need to be in a paragraph and expanded.
  • "Elliott was also recognized with a Congressional Gold Medal[15] and the Thanks of Congress for his actions in the Battle of Lake Erie. This recognition would prove to fan the flames of resentment on both sides of the Elliott-Perry controversy." - why did this fan the resentment of Elliott's supporters? (I didn't quite understand)
  • "For Perry, the post-war years were marred by controversies. In 1815, he commanded the Java in the Mediterranean during the Second Barbary War. " - the second sentence may be post-the 1812 war, but its clearly not "post-war" more generally.
  • " After the crew returned home" - do you mean the crew, or the ship? The crew suggests that Perry stayed behind in Naples.
  • "though it would continue to be debated for another quarter century" - debated by who?
  • "His family's descendants include Commander John Rodgers, the second person to become a United States naval aviator,[25] and well known civilian aviator Calbraith Perry Rodgers, the first person to fly an airplane - the Vin Fiz - across the United States.[26]... Oliver Hazard Perry La Farge (December 19, 1901 - August 2, 1963) was an American writer and anthropologist, best known for his 1930 Pulitzer Prize-winning novel Laughing Boy...Oliver Hazard Perry Belmont (November 12, 1858 – June 10, 1908) was an American socialite and United States Representative from New York...Oliver Hazard Perry Throck Morton (August 4, 1823 – November 1, 1877) (no relation) — the 14th Governor of Indiana, a famous Republican politician and U.S. Senator who was a leader among the Radical Republican reconstructionists — was named in his honor.*[27]" - these are all single sentences, and need to form a regular paragraph.
  • "Perry Highway U.S. Route 19 from Meadville to Pittsburgh in western Pennsylvania Pennsylvania Route 505 in Erie County, Pennsylvania" - why the little pictures in the text? They seemed odd.

(b) it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.

  • Some issues noted above.
  • External links section needs some work. Have a look at the MOS page for External links - are you sure that all of these links fit the criteria there? Hchc2009 (talk) 17:46, 24 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

2. Factually accurate and verifiable:

(a) it provides references to all sources of information in the section(s) dedicated to the attribution of these sources according to the guide to layout;

  • It would be worth testing the web links; not all seem to be working.
  • You'll need to check the web references for author details; in many cases the web pages give the author's name, which should be included.
  • You'll need to standardise the way you're doing the references - there should be a consistent style throughout the article. For example, in one instance you give cite a book as "Brown, John Howard, The Cyclopaedia of American Biography: Comprising the Men and Women of the United States Who Have Been Identified with the Growth of the Nation V6 (Published by Kessinger Publishing, 2006) 700 pages, Oliver Hazard Perry, p. 226. ISBN 1-4254-8629-0, ISBN 978-1-4254-8629-7."; in another, "See Bibliography Paullin, Charles Edward (October, 1918). The Battle of Lake Erie (a collection of documents, mainly those by Oliver Hazard Perry). Cleveland, Ohio: The Raufin Club. Retrieved August 18, 2011." My advice would be for you to have a look at an article you like and copy their formatting - but it needs to be consistent (i.e. all the books need to be the same; all the journals need to be the same; all the web sites need to be the same). NB: in the above, the ISBN number is the same in both cases - you'll only need to give one variant of it (the other is identical, but with, or without, the 978 prefix).
  • "Further reading" - Some of these volumes are referenced/cited in the article, so shouldn't be in "further reading". It's worth pruning the rest back to a handful - what are the key books that haven't been used to support the rest of the article but might be of interest?

(b) it provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines;

  • "He was educated in Newport, Rhode Island, and at the age of 14 was appointed a midshipman in the United States Navy on April 7, 1799." - lacks a reference
  • "His progression from being the subject of a court-martial for running aground to being a formidable commander who made a real difference has a striking parallel to the career of Admiral Chester W. Nimitz." - again, unreferenced.
  • "At the beginning of the War of 1812 American naval forces were very small, allowing the British to make many advances in the Great Lakes and northern New York waterways. The roles played by commanders like Oliver Perry at Lake Erie and Isaac Chauncey at Lake Ontario and Thomas Macdonough at Lake Champlain all proved vital to the naval effort that was largely responsible for winning that war." - unreferenced
  • ""What is often overlooked when studying Perry is how his physical participation and brilliant strategic leadership influenced the outcomes of all nine Lake Erie military campaign victories:" - unreferenced quote
  • "In a twist of irony, these land battles would be the last time the career naval officer saw combat." - could you clarify the citation for this? (i.e. who feels it's ironic)
  • "Geographical namesakes" , "Monuments" and "Ships" - you'll need references showing that these are indeed named after Perry (otherwise they could just have the same name)
  • Footnote 1 lacks a reference.

(c) it contains no original research.

  • Seems clear, provided referencing above is sorted.

Broad in its coverage:

(a) it addresses the main aspects of the topic;

(b) it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).

Yes.Hchc2009 (talk) 17:46, 24 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias.

Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.

Illustrated, if possible, by images:

(a) images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content;

(b) images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.

  • "Perry's battle flag" - is this actually what the battle flag looked like? I couldn't work out from the caption or the original file if it was, or if it was just an "artist's depiction" (in which case, I wouldn't be convinced it was relevant). Hchc2009 (talk) 20:40, 23 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sarah Alexander and William Wallace[edit]

The first paragraph that says Sarah is a direct descendent of William Wallace may be wrong.

The link points to the Scottish leader of the 1200's but his page says nothing of any children. Google also doesn't seem to make any mention of a relationship of Sarah and the famous Wallace. The book citation does say otherwise though.

Should the William Wallace page be changed to mention kids? Is there some other discrepancy? Slothman32 (talk) 08:55, 5 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, all I know is what the source cited in the article says. WP:RS, not WP:truth. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 19:40, 7 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sarah was not a direct descendent of William Wallace. Multiple geneaology sites trace Sarah's ancestry to Richard Wallace, the brother (or step brother) Williams father Alan <http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=maclaren&id=I13137>.

Some accounts report that Richard sheltered William from "the authories" when he ran amuck as a young man.<http://books.google.com/books?id=4EfCAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=william+wallace+richard+youth&source=bl&ots=_8zBuiZjxx&sig=t9speTXHOVjjKbyJROihhsbWNzo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hTkjVLetF-j2iwKHuoGoDw&ved=0CDcQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=william%20wallace%20richard%20youth&f=false> Nilpad (talk) 21:39, 24 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In addition to the sourcing question (which might suggest we should delete the word "direct"), does the William Wallace reference belong in the very first paragraph of the article? This isn't really a central part of his notability; I think it would be more appropriately moved to the "Family" section, as in the article about his brother Matthew C. Perry (where, I note, the assertion is that his mother was a "direct descendant of the uncle of Scottish patriot William Wallace"). --Arxiloxos (talk) 18:33, 21 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Arxiloxos, I agree. Do it. It was an interesting bit (of trivia), and is hardly central to his notability. So just move it. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 18:36, 21 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Done, and thanks. --Arxiloxos (talk) 23:54, 21 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Page needs work[edit]

The bibliography and reference sections need work. A bibliography is a list of books used as references -- it is not a grouping of inline citations which are supposed to be listed under 'References'. Also, 'Cite book' should be used once per book, in the bibliography, not stuck in the body of the text, and then referred/linked to with cite-tags :<ref>[[#Book-reference|Author-name, 19XX]] The 'blockquote' was used incorrectly with the signature floating about outside the quote box area. Attempted to fix but was reverted only to see another error take its place. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:37, 7 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Suggest you consider using the sfn format. Bon appetit. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 22:38, 7 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

" Don't Give Up the Ship" should be attributed to Capt. James Lawrence[edit]

"Don't give up the ship" attributed to Oliver Hazard Perry. See Captain James Lawrence, Wikipedia. According to this account, honoring his friend and fallen comrade Captain James Lawrence, Oliver Hazard Perry adopted James Lawrence's saying, "Don't Give Up the Ship" and put it on his battle flag. Kristin Augustine Christensen, ancestor of James Lawrence — Preceding unsigned comment added by FleetGhost (talk • contribs) 21:42, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It is so attributed.
Perhaps you missed this:

Faithful to the words of his battle flag, "DON'T GIVE UP THE SHIP" (a paraphrase of the dying words of Captain James Lawrence, the ship's namesake and Perry's friend.

Hope that assuages your concern. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 21:38, 15 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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More prominent than his brother???[edit]

In what alternate universe is O Perry better known than his brother Matthew??? If for Japan, if nothing else? Aristophanes68 (talk) 03:00, 25 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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