Talk:Igor Sikorsky

Russian, Ukrainian, Polish... can't you all just get along?

I'm here as an outsider to this conversation (Sikorsky was mentioned on "Doing DaVinci", so I ended up stumbling into this mess). And as someone with no dog in this game, it feels like people are completely looking over reasonable compromise solutions. Because this is a complex issue when countries change over time.

Would you say that, for example, Julius Caesar was Italian? No, he was Roman. The country has changed since then. Can we accept that there have been major geopolitical changes in the region since the Russian Empire? If so, then we need to be explicit in what we're talking about rather than using charged terms. Some specific suggestions:

• Rather than starting off and flatly declaring that he's "Russian-American" or "Ukrainian American", or even "Polish-American" - right off the bat in the article, in an attempt to "claim" him - resist the temptation. List him using terms like "Kiev-born American", "immigrant from the Russian Empire from what is now Ukraine" (or "... from the region of Ukraine"), etc. General rule: if there's a dispute over something, don't lead off declaring your viewpoint to be right in the very first sentence!
• Put the nationality dispute - and boy is it obvious that there's a dispute - into its own section. Then you can argue about it until the cows come home.
• In that section, try to avoid using any sources that could be considered as "charged" from either side that has a motive to claim him (whether Russian, Ukrainian, or Polish). Stay focused on sources without any obvious dog in the game of claiming him.
• Prefer more recent sources to old sources, as always on Wikipedia.
• You don't have to "win" an argument. In disputes, your job here is to present disputed information to readers and let them make up their own minds.

My two cents. Go on and WP:B. -- 85.220.24.30 (talk) 11:24, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

What does WP:BOTS have to do with this article? Are you claiming to be a bot, or are bots claiming you? The point you seem to ignore is that Igor Sikorsky claimed to be Russian, and later Russian American. That's supported by autobiographical sources. That's why we lead off with "Russian American". Btw, I have no dog in the hunt either, other than being an American, and, to my knowledge, I have no Russian, Polish, or Ukrainian roots whatsoever. - BilCat (talk) 01:01, 21 February 2020 (UTC) (This has since been verified by genetic testing. BilCat (talk) 23:41, 9 January 2022 (UTC))

It's not just about where he was born territorially. The point is who he considered himself to be, how he identified himself. He was vehemently opposed to being considered a Pole.

He himself wrote that he was ethnically Ukrainian, and already in the United States, after the Second World War, he considered himself that way. Although before that he admitted that the Ukrainians are part of russia, because then they captured it.

The fact that Russia has always appropriated Ukrainian figures (Korolyov, Malevich) and the fact that today it continues to destroy the country gives every reason to give the appearance of Ukrainian origin of famous people. Валерия Гарвилюк (talk) 19:14, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

a classic blatant lie, Korolev was Russian, and wrote about this many times in questionnaires. His father was Russian and his mother was Belarusian, educated in Russia and worked in Russia. Malevich was an ethnic Pole, not a Ukrainian, however, he lived in Russia from the age of 17, received a Russian education and became a professional and world famous working in Russia. 31.171.197.42 (talk) 10:54, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

I have no idea what Polish is supposed to be about Sikorsky, unless you can prove that his family consisted of Poles only. He has roots in Ukrainian orthodox nobility. Ideology of his father was Russian nationalism. Yes, his father was a Russian nationalist and he was ethnic Ukrainian at the same time. As for what Igor was writing about his ethnic roots in 1933 was that they are entirely Ukrainian and he is using Russian as self identification because he considers Ukrainians to be partially integrated into Russian nation. So in the year 1933 we could say that he was ethnic Ukrainian selfidentifying as Russian. No traces of anything Polish about him at that point is mentioned. No other written account of Igor writing about his roots seems to be known. As for his life in the USA he had strong close ties to Ukrainian diaspora there. Mr Very Knowledgeable (talk) 02:17, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

See https://polishpoland.com/tag/igor-sikorsky/ for the Polish claims. Note the page ignores Ukraine entirely. BilCat (talk) 02:35, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

I have seen since 2000s (I'm not aware of earlier examples of classifying him as Polish) few claims in Polish articles and on internet forums that he supposedly had anything to do with being Polish but no single of articles I have personally seen explain what are written historical sources for these claims. Most of reasoning in rare cases when actual base for such claims are being disputed is "*ski/*sky" suffix of his surname (which was common among Polish nobility but also among purely Ruthenian nobility and to some extend Baltic Lithuanian there are also Jewish famillies with surnames with that suffix and there are examples of such suffix in surnames of Slavic people with no ties to Polish Commonwealth at all) and the fact that there were people with surname Sikorski that are indeed ethnically Polish. One of discussions even went so far that they probably mistaken his father for a Pole that has been sent to Siberia by tzarist regime for Polish independency activism. But that is most likely confusion of who Igor's father was as we know that his father was an ideologist of Russian nationalism. I have also seen an article caliming he had roots from Volynia region orthodox Nobility that supposedly was Polish. But no sources for that claim were cited. It's rather unusual for ethnic Polish nobility to change religious confession to Orthodoxy. There were cases when Ruthenian Orthodox nobility who were subjects of Polish King to use "Polish" term when describing themselves but it was simply meaning that they were subjects of King of Poland, they were still considering themselves of being of Ruthenian blood (like in case of writer Mykola Gogol's ancestor). But even aside these facts there was no mentions of what time frame it was that his ancestors supposedly left Volynia (Igor Sikorski himself in known to me sources claimed only that he had ancestors living in Kyiv region) and how much of intermarriages with not Polish people happened in between that even and birth of Igor. What I'm pointing out here is that even if he did have a Polish ancestor (I have seen no evidence to support that claim anyway) few generations back - it might not yet be enough to be reasonable to claim he was of Polish ethnicity himself. If there are any articles or other sources that actually provide factual foundation for supposed Polish ethnicity or Polish roots of Igor Sikorski - I would be more than interested to familiarize myself with them. But so far I'm afraid that popular newspaper articles that just state his ethnicity as Polish might be insufficient and might be a result of just repeating unsourced claim. Given that Igor Sikorski himself in a letter he wrote in 1933 claimed Ukrainian ancestry and he initially considered Ukrainians to be a part of Russian nation and therefore stating he is Russian because he is Ukrainian (a view that some sources claim evolved later into considering himself exclusively Ukrainian without being Russian) I see no ground for going outside of Ukrainian and Russian group in classification. IMHO Russian part should be explained as he understood Ukrainians to be part of Russian nation and did not seen being Ukrainian and Russian as mutually exclusive (as stated per 1933 letter). Mr Very Knowledgeable (talk) 16:55, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

We list his nationality, not ethnicity, in the lead and the infobox, which is, as you admit, Russian-American. His ethnicity is a separate issue, and thus far has been left out of the article as being too contentious. That's probably the best for now, given the lack of authoritative, reliable, published sources on the issue, mystery letters not withstanding. The other Wikipedias can do whatever they want, and they do. BilCat (talk) 23:31, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

How consequent is listing all emigrants from Tzardom of Russia to USA as Russian-Americans tho? I don't see Pulaski listed as Russian-American. But following your logic he should be. Mr Very Knowledgeable (talk) 03:03, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

• You must [mean] Casimir Pulaski. He would have had to became an American citizen to be listed as Russian-American, imo. (I first thought of Frank Piasecki but he was born in the US.) -Fnlayson (talk) 03:39, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

If you have an issue with how whichever Pulaski you're talking about is listed, take it up there. However it's listed, it ought to be according to reliable, verifiable, published sources. BilCat (talk) 03:49, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

I was asking purely to clarify when is someone understood as being "something-American" generally speaking. How is Russian-American understood in sense of nationality? It means having both Russian and American citizenship? I'm asking because obviously there is no such country as "Russian-America"/"Russian-USA". If it means having both citizenship - it would be less controversial for many readers to just list these citizenship as in case of many people who had numerous citizenship during their lives - like for example someone was born in Austria-Hungary, then lived trough Austria as separate country period to later immigrate to the USA or other country. Mr Very Knowledgeable (talk) 14:37, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Ah, ok. See MOS:ETHNICITY for the general guideline on bio articles. I believe what is done here is inline with that guideline, and how it's done in other biography articles. If you'd like a clarification on the guideline, you can ask at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography. BilCat (talk) 21:02, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

So Ukrainian–American. He cannot be Russian–American as he was not ethnic Russian. MaysterMind (talk) 10:18, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Between Julius Caesar and unification of Italy, when it got in one state, or renessaince when Italian identity was born 1500 years. Sikorsky's father died in a state called Ukraine, state, that had Ukrainian as it's official language and Blue+Yellwow bicolour. State which government gave up power to modern Ukrainian state. Julius Caesar or his children and grandchildren never heard the name "Garibaldi". Пан Ярош (talk) 00:01, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

This article is about Igor Sikorsky. It is not about his father, Julius Ceasar, or Garibaldi. BilCat (talk) 00:26, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Nationality and origins of Igor Sikorsky

In the recent edits to the Sikorsky page Igor Sikorsky was labelled as a Ukrainian-American with multiple sources of backing (Britannica, etc.) However this edit has been reverted a few times, despite the fact that it is proven that Sikorsky was born in Kyiv, Ukraine (part of Ukraine, at that time occupied by Russian Empire), thusly is a Ukrainian, later naturalised American. Moreover he had stated so himself in a letter to a Ukrainian-American historian, an excerpt from which has been added to the Wikipedia page with sources. I do not see, consequently, where there could be discussions regarding the origin of Sikorsky. It is clear he was a Ukrainian American. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Annegrace1234 (talk • contribs) 18:39, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Please revert yourself and wait until their is a consensus here to support your changes. Please present all of.your evidence amd sources here so.that others can review them and comment. I'd also advise that you read though all of the previous disussions here. Many editors before you have posted what they thought was definitive proof of Sikorsky's ethnicity, for Polish, Russian, or Ukrainian. I'm sure you won't be the last either. BilCat (talk) 18:51, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Justifying my changes, taking into account what I’ve read in the earlier “talks”:

Arguments for:

1. Sikorsky was originally from Ukraine, had Ukrainian roots and had written so himself.

Evidence:

Professor Daria Markus’ (doctor of history of education and co-editor of the “Encyclopedia of Ukrainian Diaspora”) had written in an article (p. 5) for the journal “Svoboda” (published by Ukrainian National Association (USA, 2004)) that she discovered a letter Sikorsky wrote to Vasyl Halych (historian from Ukrainian diaspora of USA) in 1933: "My family, which comes from a village in the State of Kiev, where my grandfather and great-grandfather were priests, is of purely Ukrainian origin. However, we considerourselves Russians because it was a part of Russia and the Ukrainian people were integrated as a part of Russia, in the same way as Texas or Louisiana is an integrated part of the United States."

Link: http://www.svoboda-news.com/arxiv/pdf/2004/Svoboda-2004-34.pdf

2. Sikorsky considered himself a Ukrainian in his last years of living.

Evidence:

Vitaliy Dovhych (historian from Ukrainian diaspora of the USA (New York)) had written in his article (http://incognita.day.kyiv.ua/amerikanskij-ukrayinecz.html) for a Ukrainian daily journal in 2011: “In Connecticut, USA, in the town of Huntington, not far from the so-called SikorskyAircraft Corporation, I accidentally met an elderly couple by name of Sviridenko, Bogolyub and Svetlana. They knew Igor Ivanovich well, and now maintain a fairlyclose relationship with Igor Igorevich and other descendants of the genius. "Who did Sikorsky consider himself?" I asked Mrs. Svetlana when I learned that she had worked for a long time with the inventor's wife in the same company. "I don't know who he thought he was before the war," said this lively woman. ... “In the post-war period, our diaspora did everything to make Igor Ivanovych fully aware of himself as a Ukrainian. We did not speak Russian with him. ... Therefore, Sikorsky increasingly used Ukrainian instead of English. Especially if we started a discussion about the future independent Motherland. In any case, when he died, he saw himself as an American by citizenship and a Ukrainian by origin and mentality.””

So people who kept in contact with Sikorsky prior to his death have clearly stated that he considered himself a Ukrainian in his last years.

Rebuttals to previous arguments in favor of Sikorsky’s “Russian” origins:

1. The advocates of this claim stated: Igor was Russian Orthodox by faith therefore he was Russian American.

This is untrue, because faith (Russian Orthodox, Greek Catholic, etc.) doesn’t equal nationality. In fact, from 1686 all Orthodox Ukrainians inside the Russian empire were forced to change to Moskow Patriarchy (Russian Orthodox faith) You can read about it on this page in the chapter “History”: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Orthodox_Church_(Moscow_Patriarchate)

Does this mean that all Ukrainians turned Russians that year? Quite absurd, isn’t it?

2. The advocates of this claim stated: Sikorsky was born in Kyiv, which at that time was part of the Russian empire, therefore he could be considered Russian American.

This is untrue, because the Russian empire (as the title “empire” suggests) had in itself many territories, which weren’t Russian, but invaded by Russian empire, forced to be part of it. Ukraine was one of such territories. Therefore, people born in Ukraine at the time of Russian rule were just Ukrainians under Russian rule — not more, not less.

If you think this false, then consider such examples:

In the 19th-20th century India was part of the British Empire, yet we don’t consider the activist and politician Mahatma Gandhi (born in those years in India) a British man. In the 20th century Czech Republic was under rule of the Austro-Hungarian empire, yet we don’t consider the writer Jaroslav Hašek (born in Czech Republic at that time) an Austrian or Hungarian.

Same goes with Sikorsky.

3. The advocates of this claim stated: Sikorsky’s father was a Russian nationalist, thusly Igor Sikorsky was Russian American.

This is untrue, as it is simply absurd to believe that the views of the parents have any influence on the nationality of the children.

You could argue that only Russians could be Russian nationalists, but that would be untrue yet again, as Ukrainians were at that time considered as inferior people to Russians (inside the Russian empire). Thusly, it is facile to understand that to earn themselves higher positions and ranks Ukrainians would side with Russians and their views, in order to not be considered as a part of “inferiors”.

4. The advocates of this claim stated: Sikorsky was a Russian American, because it was written so in the Sikorsky Archives.

This is untrue, as I’ve checked the page of those “Archives”. There they mention being a “non-profit organization”, but nothing is said about their connections of any sort with Sikorsky’s family or Sikorsky’s corporation. Thusly, stating that this source, unrelated to Sikorsky in every way is for some reason undoubtedly true is just absurd.

5. The advocates of this claim stated: Sikorsky’s relations to Ukraine were mentioned in the online version of Britannica and were added via an edit made by a Ukrainian, thusly are false.

I don’t see how the nationality of the person makes them wrong, moreover, being familiar with Britannica’s editing procedures, I know that to make any edit on their pages this edit has to be approved with their admins/editors. Thusly it is facile to conclude that the edit was approved and thusly not just randomly and falsely made by some person.

6. The advocates of this claim stated: In an 1989 edition of Funk & WagnallsEncyclopedia Sikorsky was called a Russian American, therefore he is a Russian American.

This is unrelated, because in 1989 Ukraine wasn’t even an independent state (Ukraine proclaimed its independence in 1991), therefore it is hard to believe that the editors of this encyclopedia distinguished Ukraine from Russia. Moreover, this encyclopedia is of an old edition anyway = high probability of currently outdated information.

7. The advocates of this claim stated: Sikorsky was written as a Russian American in 2006 edition of Britannica therefore he is a Russian American.

Irrelevant for similar reasons. In 2006, the world (apart from Ukrainian diaspora or people of countries neighboring Ukraine / post-Soviet countries) hardly knew what Ukraine was. In fact, in many sources of that time even the name of the country - “Ukraine” was written with the article “the”, suggesting that it isn’t a separate country (as country names don’t require articles e.g. we say “France” and not “the France”). Editions from that time (15 years ago), therefore, have a high probability of including outdated information about Ukraine and Ukrainian diaspora.

Conclusion: Taking into account arguments and rebuttals presented it is not hard to conclude that writing Igor Sikorsky as a Ukrainian American is not writing biased or false information, it is correcting mistakes and writing the truth about him.

Actions to be taken: Revert the edits that write Sikorsky as a Ukrainian American.

Warning: Taking into account the duration between comments and responses for previous discussion topics (about a few hours/ 1 day), it is safe to say that if this comment/justification doesn’t get a response within 2 days from now (13.06.2021) it would be considered that we’ve reached a consensus and the “actions to be taken” section will be thereby implemented. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.38.209.85 (talk) 00:18, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

This is a Wikipedia talk page for the Igor Sikorsky article. Wikipedia rules and guidelines apply here, such as WP:Consensus (specifically WP:DISCUSSCONSENSUS), along with WP:Talk page guidelines. -Fnlayson (talk) 00:39, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

No, because no one has agreed with you. The sources you cited are primary sources that are be biased or unreliable. BilCat (talk) 02:07, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

Following a turbulent history stretching back many centuries, "Ukraine" as such did not emerge as a state until 1917; Sikorsky was born in 1888, when Kyev was firmly Russian. He might have become Ukrainian for the brief period from its 1917 independence to 1919, when he left for the States, I don't know which state his passport was issued by (if they even had such things). He eventually gained US nationality. I think it fair to say that he was Russian by birth but Ukrainian in spirit. I am surprised to find that the WP:MOSBIO guideline has nothing to say about nationality, just some vague remarks about "context". On that basis, we must fall back on reliable sources. Per WP:PSTS we should not interpret primary sources; there is too much of this going on here. Rather, we should rely on secondary sources to do the interpretation for us. The overwhelming majority of these describe Sikorsky as Russian-American. Personally I am unhappy about that but, right or wrong, it is what we are obliged to go with. (If we went all the way back to Kievan Rus', perhaps we should be arguing that everybody from Russia or Belarus was really Ukrainian!) — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 11:02, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

Can’t we just write in him being “Russian-American of Ukrainian descent”? 46.172.84.203 (talk) 21:34, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

What reliable sources state he's solely of Ukrainian descent? BilCat (talk) 22:10, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

I will not consider all this nonsense, I feel sorry for my time, I will quickly answer only the second point "The advocates of this claim stated: Sikorsky was born in Kyiv, which at that time was part of the Russian empire, therefore he could be considered Russian American.

This is untrue, because the Russian empire (as the title “empire” suggests) had in itself many territories, which weren’t Russian, but invaded by Russian empire, forced to be part of it. Ukraine was one of such territories. Therefore, people born in Ukraine at the time of Russian rule were just Ukrainians under Russian rule — not more, not less."

It is creepy for me to think about the level of education in Ukraine, but I will make it clear to readers how the territories of present-day Ukraine became part of Russia - The entry of Ukraine into Russia is the transition of the Zaporozhye army from the territory of the Hetmanate controlled by it to the citizenship of the Kingdom of Russia in 1654. Bogdan Khmelnitsky, being a hetman, appealed to the Russian tsar with a petition approved at the Pereyaslav Rada. It contains a request for their admission to Russia, which was approved by the tsar and passed approval at the Zemsky Sobor. Voluntary reunification since the time of Kievan Rus, not an occupation. Illiteracy and lies lead to today's problems Hopestyle (talk) 15:38, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Igor Sikorsky was simultaneously a Russian American and Ukrainian American

Igor Sikorsky was a Russian–American and Ukrainian American. Being a Russian American and Ukrainian American are not mutually exclusive. He was of both a Russian American and Ukrainian American by national origin and/or national identity. Llakew (talk) 22:33, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

References

@Llakew: That would be a good solution, if we can cite refs that assert both. The ones you've cited show one or the other. Also, Polish sources claim he's Polish, so that's another one we have to deal with. Ethnically, he's probably all three, but as far as national identity, all the sources I've seen from Sikorsky himself or his family state "Russian-American", and that's what we've gone with. BilCat (talk) 20:11, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

References

Nationality and Ethnicity are different. Wikipedia's MOS says to generally not cover ethnicity in the Lead per MOS:ETHNICITY. -Fnlayson (talk) 13:44, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

He was Ukrainian

I would like to add to the discussion above by saying that calling him Russian is the same as calling a Ukrainian under German occupation a German. It doesn't make any sense. Garpurr (talk) 23:14, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

But I would like to say that this is a blatant lie, Ukraine was not under Russian occupation, but voluntarily became part of Russia in the 17th century. Secondly, Sikorsky has repeatedly said that he is Russian, not Ukrainian. 31.171.197.42 (talk) 10:57, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Agree! Flexzzz (talk) 18:53, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree that you agreed with a blatant lie. 31.171.197.42 (talk) 10:58, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

please change russian-American to Ukrainian-American

please change russian-American to Ukrainian-American.

He himself wrote that he was ethnically Ukrainian, and already in the United States, after the Second World War, he considered himself that way. Although before that he admitted that the Ukrainians are part of Russia, because then they captured it.

The fact that Russia has always appropriated Ukrainian figures (Korolyov, Malevich) and the fact that today it continues to destroy the country gives every reason to give the appearance of Ukrainian origin of famous people. Валерия Гарвилюк (talk) 19:26, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. BilCat (talk) 19:37, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

reliable sources? the modern Russian-Ukrainian war is not a reliable sources for you? 45.12.26.0 (talk) 11:45, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

No, it's not a reliable source for Sikorsky's nationality. How could it be!! BilCat (talk) 19:55, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

And who will decide which source is more reliable in this case?... Cesare Urbino (talk) 01:25, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

• Wikipedia has policies for this, starting with WP:RELIABLE, including the WP:REPUTABLE section. -Fnlayson (talk) 01:48, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
• @Cesare Urbino: The IP cited "the modern Russian-Ukrainian war" as a source. We don't need a policy to know that is not a source, much less not reliable! BilCat (talk) 03:29, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

  Whats funny is stuff like this makes wikipedia unrelaible with bogus info. And refusual to change. Its legit obvious hes ukranian and russian is just wrong. 108.72.52.45 (talk) 11:52, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

isn't it stated in this same article that he's from Kyiv lol? he was literally Ukrainian, why would you appeal to Russian imperialism by defying it? 188.163.30.104 (talk) 22:07, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 October 2022

Sikorsky is a Ukrainian-American NOT a Russian-American is born in and studied in Kyiv. 69.165.145.102 (talk) 14:22, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Not done. Sources and he himself refer to him as Russian. --Mvqr (talk) 15:02, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

He also referred to himself as Ukrainian, so it's correct to list him as Ukrainian American, as "X-American" is a form that refers to person's ethnicity, not citizenship(nationality) that person obtained at birth or later in life. There is nothing wrong as listing him as Ukrainian-American, we have his testimony. His outlook on the subject was evolving during his life and he switched from "Russian" in sense he saw himself as Russian because he considered Ukrainians to be just a group of Russians, to just "Ukrainian" later in his life. There is literally no logical reason to not list him as Ukrainian-American based on this fact. One can also make a point that it's correct to refer to him AT THE SAME TIME as Russian-American. Sikorskiy of era "Russian in sense Ukrainians are Russians" himself probably would not see that as contradiction, while older Sikorskiy later in his life would be fine with just Ukrainian-American. Mr Fantastic Knowledge (talk) 17:21, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

While an interesting take, you need to cite reliable published sources for your claims that he considered himself to be Ukrainian. Most period sources, including his own writings, state that he called himself Russian. Some users here have claimed that he did call himself Ukrainian later in life, but without backing it up with reliable published sources. So what are your reliable published sources for this? BilCat (talk) 18:06, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

The source is his own writing. It was already sourced in discussion and texts mentioning it were sourced, additional texts are also mentioned at https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D1%96%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%86%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80_%D0%86%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87#%D0%95%D1%82%D0%BD%D1%96%D1%87%D0%BD%D0%B5_%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%85%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8F where at the moment of writing this comment total of 7 source texts are mentioned. Mr Fantastic Knowledge (talk) 05:06, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Please list the specific sources you are referring to. Also be aware that different Wikipedias have their own requirements for reliable sources, so just because a source is cited in one doesn't mean than it automatically used by another. BilCat (talk) 08:59, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm referring to all mentioned sources, you were presented with them numerous times on this discussion talk already. This Wikipedia entry on Sikorskiy already contains numerous references to sources of similar or even lower quality than what was listed here on this page in relation to Sikorskiy's own admission about his Ukrainian ethnic background. So at this point it remains unknown what exactly is not satisfying you about sources presented on this page. Until you state them explicitly there is no room for further development of collection of possible new sources. If you value quality of sources your cooperation is needed. Are you able to list possibly as detailed as you can what exactly is not satisfying? I mean explicitly - by stating certain facts and characteristics of sources in question, not just linking to WP:X pages. Only that way I can see the debate being linked to certain substance. Links to WP:X are not presentation of criticism of specific texts being debated. Mr Fantastic Knowledge (talk) 14:46, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

There have been dozens of sources cited on this talk page over the years, many of them low quality, or even outright ridiculous. One user even cited "the modern Russian-Ukrainian war"!, and yesterday an IP user supported it as a source! So, please list the sources you are referring to so we all have a common basis for discussion. Thanks. BilCat (talk) 18:06, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

You were already provided with sources. What is your motivation for your request to repeat them once again? Turning talk page into repetition of same list of sources serves no purpose. Mr Fantastic Knowledge (talk) 16:39, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

• Note that only Reilable sources count per Wikipedia policies. -Fnlayson (talk) 16:51, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

  If both of you have any specific comments toward sources feel free to present them. So far you presented none. Just stating something is unreliable does not constitute criticism, especially if texts of similar or even lower quality are already used in article. Mr Fantastic Knowledge (talk) 07:07, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

  Towards what sources? You haven't presented any sources, even after being asked to do so. If you have problems with existing sources, you are free to challenge their reliability, though you will have to list them too. BilCat (talk) 08:19, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

  Feel free to explain how did I not present any sources if I explicitly defined what sources I have in mind when mentioning Sikorskiy's statement about his Ukrainian ethnic background. Mr Fantastic Knowledge (talk) 12:03, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

  By present I meant list. Which sources specifically? Name them so everyone here knows exactly which sources we're talking about. BilCat (talk) 17:19, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

  As I said - these mentioned on this talk page. It's specific enough. If not - feel free to explain why. Mr Fantastic Knowledge (talk) 19:56, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

  I have. I'm not going to try to guess which of the umpteen "sources" mentioned on this talk page are the ones you believe are reliable. If you can't be bothered to list what sources you are referring to, then I politely suggest that you drop the stick. Based on your contributions, you appear to be on Wikipedia solely to ""right great wrongs", and that's not what Wikpedia is for. BilCat (talk) 22:32, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

  Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks

  Mr Fantastic Knowledge (talk) 03:43, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

  Again with the false accusations? BilCat (talk) 05:31, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

"Ethnicity" ... "should generally not be in the lead" per MOS:ETHNICITY. His nationality was Russian; Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire when Sikorsky lived there. -Fnlayson (talk) 02:31, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Then numerous African and South American writers, artists, activists, politicians, leaders etc. Should be refered as French, Spanish, Belgian, German, Enlglish poets, painters, writers, sculptors, singers instead of Zulu, Inca, Aztec, Yoruba etc.? Their lands were part of Spanish, German, English, French etc colonial empires. Or another example – should be Kościuszko and Puławski listed as "Russian Americans"? Where is consistency here? Please point it to me. I would be very thankful as it would provide some potential material for thoughts needed to solve this. As now I see no consistency in treatment of that topic and all is just based around which group of editors is more numerous and can push certain narratives in articles. It's highly unencyclopedic and some solution shall be disputed sooner or later. Mr Fantastic Knowledge (talk) 17:12, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

There's no apparent consistency because each case is, or at least should be, judged on its own merits, as reported in reliable published sources. All the other cases should be dealt with on their own articles. Bringing up others is just a needless distraction. Next you'll be telling us that Pavel Chekov was really Ukrainian! But it still won't matter to Igor Sikorsky's situation. BilCat (talk) 19:58, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry but if you want to start personal attacks I would be forced to report that. There is no place at Wikipedia for such behavior. See Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks Mr Fantastic Knowledge (talk) 07:09, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

I haven't made any personal attacks. BilCat (talk) 08:16, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm following Wikipedia:Avoiding_insults, citation:

"When someone issues an insulting remark or insinuation, then politely respond for them to "Remember WP:NPA" – as the most-common reference to policy "WP:No personal attacks"."

Mr Fantastic Knowledge (talk) 12:01, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

It was an attempt at humor. Obviously it flopped, but no malice was intended. BilCat (talk) 17:16, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

So let met get this straight. He spoke Russian, repeatedly said he was Russian, when he was growing up Kiev was a city in the Russian Empire with only a minority being Ukrainian, his father was a Russian nationalist outspoken against the Ukrainian national movement, but somehow you see him as "Ukrainian"? LOL. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A0D:6FC2:67D1:2400:ED60:460F:9289:4339 (talk) 21:39, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Source for date of fleeing and threat motive

The source for fleeing in early 1918 as well as the motive for fleeing is right there after the sentence: [1] Archived 2012-12-06 at the Wayback Machine.

It states:

"Igor Ivanovich left Russia because they threatened to shoot him," said Sergei Igorevich. "In early 1918 one of his former colleagues, who was then collaborating with the Bolsheviks, came to his place late at night and said: "The situation is very dangerous. I saw a warrant to shoot you." That was the time of the "red terror," when people were shot on the spot, without a court ruling. Sikorsky was twice as dangerous for the communists: he was both the Tsar's friend and a very popular person. All of St. Petersburg knew him, many people believed he was a hero. Tsar Nicholas II himself visited the airfield in Tsarskoye Selo to watch the young Russian pilot's flights.

Niokog (talk) 14:34, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

• Understood. Thanks for updating and posting here. -Fnlayson (talk) 16:04, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Sikorsky is Ukrainian, not Russian

The woman who wrote the book used as the source for calling Sikorsky a Russian nationalist - Homo Imperii: A History of Physical Anthropology in Russia is Marina Mogilner, a brainwashed Russian nationalist.

In this resource, Sikorsky mentions how his family is purely, without a doubt, Ukrainian. 2600:1700:B4A0:4E00:65F0:3897:A942:9256 (talk) 20:07, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

See MOS:ETHNICITY concerning the Lead. Sikorsky's nationality was Russian since Ukraine was a part of the Russian Empire then. -Fnlayson (talk) 20:58, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 February 2023

In 1933 Igor Sikorsky wrote that his “family is of purely Ukrainian origin.” 108.53.47.210 (talk) 19:11, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. See above. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:16, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

What consensus? One of editors is simply calling all sources mentioning his background as "unreliable" without providing any information why and refusing to provide any further explanations. Please explain how to reach consensus in such environment. Zdumiewający Połysk Farby Olejnej Rozcieńczonej Terpentyną (talk) 13:27, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 February 2023

Ukrainian-American, not russian. Kyiv is the capital of Ukraine. 2601:14D:457F:27D0:39DB:F45:3664:89F3 (talk) 19:41, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: see above requests and discussions Cannolis (talk) 19:44, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 May 2023

Please, not russian-born, but Ukrainian. Kyiv was and is Ukraine 193.16.45.163 (talk) 18:31, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. BilCat (talk) 18:37, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Sikorsky ethnic Russian

When questioned regarding his roots, he would answer: "My family is of Russian origin. My grandfather and other ancestors from the time of Peter the Great were Russian Orthodox priests." [2]http://www.sikorsky.com/Lists/eNewsletter/2013/Commlinks_0313.pdf Ukrainians have a national trait to attribute to themselves all famous people born on the territory of modern Ukraine, they told the public media that Mila Kunnis is an ethnic Ukrainian (Jewish) and purposefully distorted the words of Dustin Hoffman when he said that his ancestors fled during the Jewish pogroms , and the Ukrainian media translated it as "they were persecuted because they are Ukrainians." When reading topics, Ukrainians refer to some "letters" that never existed, which Sikorsky allegedly wrote and spoke about his Ukrainian identity, not a single official source confirms this, all these conversations are conducted only by Ukrainians, all their references to "documents " lead to unknown Ukrainian sites. Ukrainians take credit for everyone, even designer Korolyov, whose ancestors were Russians, Greeks, Belarusians, Poles, his father was an ethnically Russian teacher of Russian language and literature, but Ukrainians furiously argue that he is "Ukrainian". Definitely correct and truthful to write: Igor Sikorsky of Russian origin, citizen of the Russian Empire, later a US citizen Hopestyle (talk) 15:29, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Korolov's mother had undeniable Ukrainian roots. The fact you carefully avoided to present. Her Greek roots were very distant dating back to Greek colonist that arrived in Ukraine in early-mid 17th century and intermarried with Ukrainian Cossack family. As for websites (you do not address other mentioned media that mention's Ukrainian ethnicity of Igor) all you have to say is that they are "unknown Ukrainian sites" which does not constitute objective criticism and together with general feel of your post has obvious racist chauvinist undertones. There is no place for such attitude at Wikipedia. Please leave your prejudices to yourself before commenting. Slavic Phenomennon (talk) 11:05, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

This is a lie, Korolev’s father is Russian, his mother is Belarusian. 31.171.197.42 (talk) 11:01, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Korolev definitely had Ukrainian roots... and Russian, and Greek, and Belarusian, and Polish (if I'm not mistaken). A wonderful mix. One time, he said he considered himself Ukrainian. Another, he said Russian. What's your point? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A0D:6FC2:67D1:2400:ED60:460F:9289:4339 (talk) 21:36, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 July 2023

Change "was a Russian–American[1][2][3] aviation pioneer" for "was a Kiev-born American aviation pioneer". Also remove "Nationality Russian-American[1][2][3]". These changes will allow to end continuous controversy over the topic of his nationality and ethnicity, and be in line with the neutrality principle. Julia Kozytska (talk) 20:46, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. BilCat (talk) 21:07, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Consensus will never be reached because of amount of pro-russian editors here, including you, you're helping to spread them misinformation with your current actions 213.179.233.80 (talk) 13:59, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm not "pro-Russian" in any way whatsoever, and neither are the majority of long-term editors who have contributed to the talk page. What we are is pro-reliable sources. I also do not believe the suggestion will do anything to change the situation, even with other pro-Ukrainian editors. I could be wrong, which is why we use the consensus process to decide. So rather than cast dispersions about people you don't even know (which is a personal attack), focus on the issue instead. BilCat (talk) 21:53, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

1) We already had lots of reliable sources providing information that Sikorsky has considered himself Ukranian at the end of his life

2) For some "odd", reason Sikorsky is the only Ukranian (on my knowledge) to be labeled as russian on entire Wikipedia. As example we have George Kistiakowsky who was also born in Russian empire on territory of modern Ukraine, but theres exactly ZERO disputes regarding his nationality.

And personally, i think consensus has been already made - enough of editors consider him to be Ukranian-American. Its time for things to change.

s 213.179.233.80 (talk) 01:02, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

None of the sources that claim Sikorsky considered himself to be Ukrainian at the end of his life can be considered reliable sources per WP:RS. Your other points are totally irrelevant. BilCat (talk) 01:44, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

First of all, its can be considered WP:RS, your BS reasons to not consider it as such just don't make any sense,

Secondly its relevant, no other page of American-Ukrainian historical figure have same problem. So please tell me - WHY a person of UKRAINIAN origin BORN IN UKRAINIAN CITY on UKRAINIAN TERRITORY won't be considered a UKRAINIAN?

Should we start labeling every person born under colonial rule as a person of colonial empires just because you think so? Personally, i think your mod rights should be revoked, you're doing a terrible job of keeping this page non biased 213.179.233.80 (talk) 19:34, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Why? He said he was Russian, in those days Kiev was in the Russian Empire and Ukrainians were a minority in the city. You can't define people from a century back based on current politics. A Russian-speaker born in the Russian Empire who repeatedly said he was Russian is now... Ukrainian? Big LOL. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A0D:6FC2:67D1:2400:ED60:460F:9289:4339 (talk) 21:35, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

All of your "points" have been answered in one way or another before. BilCat (talk) 19:53, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Sikorsky was Russian, born in the Russian city of Kyiv, received a Russian education, and at the time of Sikorsky’s birth, Ukraine did not exist and therefore there could not have been Ukrainian territories and cities then. 31.171.197.42 (talk) 11:08, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 August 2023

Igor Sikorskyis a Ukrainian engineer, obviously you should change the false information about this outstanding person 2A02:3033:41B:32C7:8D2A:EE6A:B455:DAE3 (talk) 09:43, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 10:24, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Obviously, you need to stop spreading disinformation, Sikorsky has repeatedly clarified that he is Russian, not Ukrainian. Kyiv was not a Ukrainian city at that time, but a Russian city; no more than 16% of Ukrainians lived at the time of Sikorsky’s birth. Sikorsky received a Russian education. 31.171.197.42 (talk) 11:05, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 October 2023

Igor Sikorsky is NOT RUSSIAN. Anyone born in Ukraine, is UKRAINIAN!!!!! Can you please remove all Russian references to anyone born in Ukraine? 76.169.30.139 (talk) 06:55, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. —Sirdog (talk) 08:11, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I cannot tell if this is supposed to be a parody or not. Mellk (talk) 08:24, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Do you know the difference between ethnicity and nationality? He said he was Russian, so... even though I think he was actually a mix, ethnically. But in terms of nationality, there was no Ukraine then. He was born in the Russia Empire. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A0D:6FC2:67D1:2400:ED60:460F:9289:4339 (talk) 21:33, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 December 2023

He is not a russian, he is Ukrainian. The information in the article is incorrect and should be edited. Ukrainians were occupied by soviet union (russia) for the previous century. We’ve never stopped fighting with these animals, you are just now able to finally see it. Occupation does not make a person russian. Sin1858 (talk) 06:42, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. As you can see above, there has been considerable debate over Sikorsky's nationality without consensus being reached. Per WP:NOCON, it is customary to keep the status quo in such situations. Liu1126 (talk) 11:09, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Except he himself considered himself to be Russian, so... yes. What can you do? In those days, a huge percentage of Kiev was of Russian ethnicity. Your definitions of "Russian" and "Ukrainian" are largely based on definitions established already under Soviet rule.

Sikors'ky was Ukrainian!

Could you please change Russian-American to Ukrainian-American? It is important to our people and our country's history to tell the world about the notable people of our country, of whom we are proud. 68.132.60.235 (talk) 07:03, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 April 2024

change : Kiev to kyiv change : Russion-American to Ukrainian-American

right now it's misinformation 2601:248:680:BAE0:5221:2852:678:C1FE (talk) 19:32, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. Try and read the discussions above and come up with some new arguments or evidence, instead of just spamming edit requests. Liu1126 (talk) 19:51, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 April 2024

Igor Sikorsky was Ukrainian, I worked for Sikorsky aircraft, and he referred to himself as Ukrainian in any and all correspondence. Ukraine, although under Russian occupation and rule, was very much a country at Igors birth in 1889. Please use actual internationally recognized borders when referring to nationality in posts such as this. 50.47.31.23 (talk) 19:05, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Please see the previous sections. RudolfRed (talk) 19:16, 8 April 2024 (UTC)