Talk:The finger

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Date	Process	Result
October 15, 2012	Good article nominee	Listed

A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on August 2, 2012.

The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that the Connecticut Supreme Court found that giving the finger (pictured) was offensive, but not obscene?

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Lack of other European output[edit]

The gesture is also used to say "piss off" which is a alternative to the "fuck you" gesture, moreso in meaning "get lost".

Requested move 1 September 2023[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

It was proposed in this section that The finger be renamed and moved to Middle finger.

result:
Procedural close. Reasons given in survey below. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 02:10, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Move logs: source title · target title

This is template {{subst:Requested move/end}}

The finger → Middle finger – Please place your rationale for the proposed move here. 2001:8A0:7778:0:7879:A1C3:FB2A:D5A0 (talk) 17:30, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose because no realistic reason; the middle finger is an appendage and has its own article. —ChrisP2K5 (talk) 20:24, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is a malformed move request, since the destination name is occupied and the proposer has not suggested what to do with that current content. Also, no rationale was provided. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 20:50, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as malformed. No rationale, and the target title already exists. O.N.R. ^(talk) 23:07, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 23 November 2023[edit]

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Omit the word obscene in the first sentence. It is false as well as misleading. Billzwick (talk) 04:35, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The middle finger doesn't appear to lead people to think about the penis, according to research. [1]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6490901/]

Numerous courts have also opined on the matter, ruling that the gesture isn't obscene (on its own).

[2]https://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2010/03/middlefinger.pdf] Billzwick (talk) 04:45, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: Just because it isn't legally considered obscene in the United States doesn't mean it isn't considered obscene – the article does discuss its legal status in the US under the section Political and military use. I'll note that the journal article you cite calls the gesture obscene right in the abstract and throughout the rest of the article. Tollens (talk) 08:07, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like the Wired article does too: That a gesture may be described as obscene in the common parlance is not determinative of whether that gesture falls within the legal definition of "obscene" speech. (page 1431). Tollens (talk) 08:12, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The middle finger is not used or received to connote sexual gestures or disgustingness, research shows, and as far as common parlance goes, it is not amoral or indecent given that it's a protected expression in multiple areas of the world. Calling 'contempt' and/or 'protest' obscene and therefore disgusting as well as amoral sure is an exaggeration and immensely anti-American. Billzwick (talk) 15:06, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

By calling the gesture obscene, you're negating the many positive aspects underlying acts of defiance and rebellion, and overlooking the fact that the gesture is also used as a nonviolent form of emotional communication and dissent. Billzwick (talk) 15:13, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If the courts aren't worthy of defining the word obscene, then who is? Apparently anyone else, according to this article. Per common parlance, how are you even defining that?! For the record, Canadian courts as well as Scandinavian ones have also ruled that the middle finger is not an obscene gesture on its own. Billzwick (talk) 15:20, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia isn't in the business of correcting 'errors' that other reliable sources have published – it's merely a summary of what has already been written about a topic. If reliable sources tend to call the gesture 'obscene' (which they do seem to), that's the word that gets used in the article whether or not we agree. Tollens (talk) 21:16, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That some others seem to call it obscene might be because of this article, and not vice versa. And isn't that a part of dissent and contempt -- safeguarding the minority from the majority?! Billzwick (talk) 22:41, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's not relevant why reliable sources use the terms they do, just that they do. Wikipedia is not the place for righting great wrongs. Tollens (talk) 23:02, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

REPLACE OBSCENE WITH OFFENSIVE OR INSULTING[edit]

It's the first sentence of the entry, and therefore can't be debatable. The gesture has become desensitized in a large portion of the world, and there are too many people who don't consider it to be obscene (refuting your argument in favor of common parlance). And why argue about obscenity so soon, an argument that's absolutely occurring, which is why replacing the word is the more neutral approach at the onset, or omitting it altogether. Billzwick (talk) 22:57, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Jerry Seinfeld’s Alternate Gesture[edit]

Comedian Jerry Seinfeld has suggested that giving someone “the toe” would be worse than giving them “the finger”. He believes that showing someone your smelly, hairy toe is worse than a finger. Mitch045 (talk) 14:09, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]