Talk:Dalmatia

lead section region discussion

I've recently reverted a new user's change that removed the notion of Dalmatia being in Croatia from the top of the article (which would be glaring NPOV/UNDUE issue), while at the same it is a bit overcrowded there, esp. in combination with the hatnote. Suggestions welcome how to phrase it in a more concise manner. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 14:57, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

6th century slavs

In an edit, editor OyMosby mentioned that "the article" indicated that the Sclaveni (South Slavs) who entered the area in the 6th century were "mostly Croats". I would be happy to review that specific article if OyMosby would provide the citation. In reading Van Antwerp Fine Jr., John (1991). The Early Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Sixth to the Late Twelfth Century. University of Michigan Press. ISBN 978-0-472-08149-3. pages 50–57 it appears that the Croats were not originally Slavs, but had an Iranian origin (p. 57), and that they didn't enter Dalmatia until the 7th century after defeating the incumbent Avars, citing Constantine. See also the sentence in this article "According to the work De Administrando Imperio written by the 10th-century Byzantine Emperor Constantine VII, the Croats had arrived in Roman province of Dalmatia in the first half of the 7th century," citing Katičić (1989) and Birin (2015), two articles in Croatian. On this basis having Croats included in the Slavic invasion of the 6th century seems to be an over generalization. Like I said, I look forward to reviewing the article mentioned by OyMosby.  --Bejnar (talk) 19:06, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

There exist different interpretations of the DAI in literature. DAI itself anachronistically projects events, and sometimes is contradicting own accounts often because of political reasons. Croats were represented as new arrivals from faraway lands and liberators of Roman land from the Avar rule although that's highly unlikely and most probably merely revolted against the Avars after already arrived. Fine sometimes isn't most accurate/factual and when cited alone should be attributed, and the Iranian origin/identity of the Croats isn't something usually considered in the historiography anymore. --Miki Filigranski (talk) 21:00, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

My main point was that three cited sources have the Croats arriving later than the 6th century Slavs. And the arrivals are distinct. But what does Miki Filigranski mean by "the Iranian origin/identity of the Croats isn't something usually considered in the historiography anymore." -- is it ignored? or is there published research suggesting that it isn't so? I note that recent historiography regarding the Ustashe concept of "Croatian" accepted the eventual genetic merging of the Croats with the Slavs as reported by Fine. Regarding recent research, see footnote 71 in Bartulin (2008) where it says: "Although there is an on-going academic debate on the origins of the proto-Croats, the name 'Croat' itself is most probably of Iranian origin. See Radoslav Katičić, 'On the Origins of the Croats' in Ivan Supičić Croatia in the Early Middle Ages: a cultural survey (London: Philip Wilson Publishers, 1999), pp. 149–167." See also, Bilogrivić, Goran (2018) "Carolingian weapons and the problem of Croat migration and ethnogenesis." in Migration, Integration and Connectivity on the Southeastern Frontier of the Carolingian Empire Brill, pp. 86–99; and Goss, Vladimir P. (2013) "Culture v. Nature: on Slavic and non-Slavic Origin of the Croats." Starohrvatska prosvjeta 3.40, pp. 243–253. Regardless of the possible Iranian origin of the Croats, they do not seem to be part of the Slavic invasion of the 6th century. --Bejnar (talk) 17:50, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Again, depends on the perspective and critical analysis of DAI in the sources. If there's no critical analysis and sources stick with the DAI narrative then often provide only such viewpoint. It is related to the Grafenauer's thesis that there happened two migrations of the South Slavs, that the described events in DAI are unrelated. It is impossible to differentiate Croats from the other Slavs. There exist many sources which argue that the Croats arrived with the late 6th century Slavs - however the arrival of the late 6th century Slavs is a whole other issue itself as the sources sometime do not differentiate between seasonal plundering, warring, arrival and settlement of the Slavs/Croats. The arrival and settlement in narrow Dalmatia can be surely argued only since the 7th century. As for the Iranian origin/identity, previously in the historiography was popular an idea that the Croats didn't arrive as Slavs yet as an Iranian-Slavic elite in the 7th century. Today, such concept is mainly used for explaining the etymology of the Croatian ethnonym and related to the supposed Proto-Croats history somewhere in Ukrainian homeland (and often only explained as a Iranian loanword into Proto-Slavic rather than claiming an existence of some Iranian tribe of Croats). Goss wasn't an expert on genetics to be considered a reliable source as well the source is greatly outdated/wrong by now.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 07:55, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Currently, the best historiographical & archaeological source about the topic, or at least an overview about it, is Krešimir Filipec (2020), "Praishodište i/ili situacija. Slaveni i Hrvati – do zauzimanja nove domovine" (Origin and/or situation. Slavs and Croats – until the conquest of a new homeland), Zagreb: Centar za ranosrednjovjekovna istraživanja Zagreb-Lobor: Odsjek za arheologiju Filozofskog fakulteta Sveučilišta, Katedra za opću srednjevjekovnu i nacionalnu arheologiju: Arheološki zavod Filozofskog fakulteta. ISBN 978-953-57369-1-2.

I will check the current sources and provide better ones, but the issue and details in question are out of scope for this article. There already exist other articles which are dealing with them. It is enough saying that the South Slavs arrived in the late 6th-early 7th century.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 08:24, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Da. But don't include the Croats in that statement. --Bejnar (talk) 19:57, 3 May 2024 (UTC)