Talk:Chill Out (KLF album)

UK version slightly longer?

I have a very strong memory that the original UK version - which is very rare on CD, actually fades out some 20-30 seconds later than the commonly available North American CD. This may well be based on memories of my friend's original UK vinyl.

Anyone out there care to try to verify that? I don't have a UK copy :( —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.64.54.64 (talk) 21:04, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

The US CD definitely fades out about a half-minute earlier than the UK CD. There are a couple of other minor differences as well. --Lazlo Nibble (talk) 19:06, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Madrugada Eterna

Further to the discussions about this song / single. It strikes me that the connection between The Orb and The KLF is strengthened by the 2006 release from Malicious Damage 'Orb Sessions Volume 1'

The first track on this album is called "Mummie Don't" and quite clearly has sections that are identical to madrugada. The tracks themselves aren't individually credited, the whole release credits the usual early orb players including J. Cauty. The inner sleeve quoting :

"To the memories of Orb sessions in Trancentral, Lynford Studios, WAU Parties, Benmio, Coach House, Phutur, Spectrum, Schoom, Land of Oz, Trip, Seaside Resorts, Space & Yellow"

I feel it would be worth adding a reference and link to this album from this section.

I also had an email from 'Colsey' at Malicious Damage that stated he was trying to get lx and Jimi to agree to release the original 'Space' version, with both artists contributions which lx still has the masters of. This of course is heresay at the moment.

Baz whyte 20:31, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Many thanks for the tip-off. I haven't heard "Mummie Don't", but will seek it out. Are there any references out there that acknowledge the association (just to avoid 'original research' charges)?

Regarding 'Space', now that would be awesome. I think the released version is a beautiful thing, but I'd love to hear the Orb version. It's also interesting to see "Benmio" listed in the Orb recording locations. Is that definitely how it's spelt? Presumably it's the same place as "Benio" (mentioned in "Burn the Bastards" and a "Last Train to Trancentral" mix). --Vinoir 12:14, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Ooh... Now that is interesting and I agree, it would be very nice to hear Space as it was meant to be. Let's hope something comes of that. Either way, thanks for the info. --kingboyk 16:52, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Re: "Mummie Don't" there's nothing official, however a listener who knows both tracks can instantly recognise them as having the same roots / melodies / samples.

Re: "Benmio" - yes typo / dyslexia on my part - checking the credits again its actually "Bennio" - double n, but I suspect the same place. —The preceding Baz whyte 19:21, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Sounds more like a cross between 3am and Huge Pulsating Brain to me but either way it's an excellent example of what we could call the cross-pollination, or "that time when The KLF were releasing Orb tracks, and The Orb were releasing a KLF track" :) Fun material to listen to, but a nightmare to write about.--kingboyk (talk) 19:24, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

I gather that "Mummy Don't" was removed when the compilation was reissued, unsubstantiated reports being that Jimmy felt it was more KLF than Orb! --kingboyk (talk) 12:12, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

What is claimed to be The Orb version of Space may be circulating on a well known video sharing site. --kingboyk (talk) 19:09, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Authentic Sound Effects Volume 2

Seems to be some confusion around this album. After a quick listen (oh no! original research!) the FX cited in the article do seem to have been sourced from the CD ("Authentic Sound Effects - Volume 2", Elektra 9 60732-2, US 1987). But if so, any mention of the original "Authentic Sound Effects" LPs is misleading, as all of the cited sound effects were newly (digitally) recorded for that CD. Lazlo Nibble 05:10, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Delisted Good Article

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   a (fair representation): b (all significant views):

5. It is stable.

   

6. It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.

   a (tagged and captioned): b lack of images (does not in itself exclude GA): c (non-free images have fair use rationales):

7. Overall:

   a Pass/Fail:

Problems

There is WAY too much unsourced information. No original research is allowed in GAs. And there is an entire section empty... Why is it even there? The article has been delisted. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. --LaraLove^Talk/_Contribs 05:19, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Blanked "Context" section

This entire section seems to have been commented out, so I moved it here:
==Context== <!-- TODO: Some KLF Context. Some mention of the evolution of ambient house--><!-- Ambient music was first used as a term by Brian Eno in the manifesto that accompanied his Music for Airports album of 1978. "Whereas conventional background music is produced by stripping away all sense of doubt and uncertainty (and thus all genuine interest) from the music, ambient music retains these qualities," Eno wrote. "Ambient music is intended to induce calm and a space to think. It must be able to accommodate many levels of listening without enforcing one ... it must be as ignorable as it is interesting." This definition, currently being consulted for the revised edition of the Oxford English Dictionary, acted as a blueprint for a small coterie of experimenters until 1989. Then, something strange happened. In the creative melee that ensued in the wake of the first acid house parties, DJs such as the KLF's Jimmy Cauty and the Orb's Alex Patterson began to play Eno records in so-called "chill out rooms" at dance music clubs. Mixing Music for Airports with German synthesizer records, Strauss waltzes and BBC birdsong LPs, their initiative ran counter to all the dance club and pop music conventions of the time. [[David Toop]], "A world in a grain of sound", ''[[The Times]]'' ([[London]]) ISSN 01400460, [[13 August]] [[1993]], Features section.--><!-- ''Chill Out'' is a seminal work that pioneered the genre of [[ambient house]] music.--><!--Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians suggests that Chill Out was the first ambient house record.-->

Any reason why this is? Just64helpin 19:50, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I wonder if there shouldn't be a link to Ambient_music and that page shouldn't be updated with some of this content, and include a link back here? KLF are one of my faves, so I'd be glad to discuss this. Rodhullandemu 02:55, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

All our (WP:KLF) Featured Articles have a context section I think... I don't remember but that section is probably just something we didn't get round to finishing. I'll put it back but fully commented out.

Certainly there is material which can be shared between articles (The Orb is now a FA and probably has some stealable stuff too) but not at the expense of removing relevant material from here. As a featured article this would need to have something to say about the context in which the album was released. --kingboyk 14:15, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Looking into it some more, I think what happened is this: The article got GA. I and/or Vinoir started work on a new section, hoping to get the article to FA. He left Wikipedia and the section sat there blanked out. Article then got delisted as a GA as a result :) It's ridiculously hard to find who changed what and when on Wikipedia, but ths 2006 revision shows the section under construction (and it had a Madrugada Eterna section at the time; as discussed in this talk section below the release of that song the year before might be quite significant). --kingboyk (talk) 19:47, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Further discussion about the article, Alex Paterson's involvement etc

See also #Madrugada_Eterna --kingboyk (talk) 19:51, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

For what it's worth - and I'm coming to the discussion two years late - I think the paragraph goes into too much detail for what it adds; it is clear from David Toop that ambient music predated Chill Out by several years, and the most novel thing about the album was its paradoxical integration of ambient within the context of dance music culture. I believe the page would benefit more from some more KLF-related context; particularly an explanation of Q magazine's quote about the album being initially perceived as a piss-take. I assume the idea of combining ambient with dance music must have seemed a joke, like "ambient metal", and further KLF's reputation as a kind of parody of house music was in people's minds at the time. I expect there are very few contemporary sources for something that had a cult reception in the UK pop scene twenty years ago. Given that it grew from live sessions, are there bootleg recordings of the original performances? -Ashley Pomeroy (talk) 12:08, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

@Ashley Pomeroy: I can beat your 2 year delay in replying :)

Actually, at the time of the release of Chill Out in February 1990, The KLF probably weren't famous for anything. They'd achieved some notoriety in the music press as The JAMs, and a UK number 1 as The Timelords, but the earlier KLF releases (non-charting singles, and the compilation albums Shag Times and The "What Time Is Love?" Story) hadn't troubled the charts at all. Maybe that was some confused revisionist thinking from Q? I'd have to go through the contemporary reviews to find out, and I don't have time (and as you said, there may not be many). What I can say is that we always tried to include negative or differing viewpoints in order to be neutral.

The KLF claimed they made the album in a live take at Jimmy's house. Some 'bootlegs' such as "Chill Out 2" and "Chill Out 3" have circulated but these are believed to be fan made. Essentially, no, I am not aware of any genuine Chill Out bootlegs (and the KLF are widely bootlegged).

The article used to say

This was a DAT to DAT "live" edit - essentially Chill Out is a "best of" of many hours of collaborative ambient DJ jam sessions that also involved Alex Paterson of The Orb.[citation needed] These took place at both Trancentral and the monthly 'Land of Oz' at London's Heaven nightclub.

The first sentence was removed [after I'd semi-retired AFAIK; it was still there in my edit in 2008], and the second (which doesn't make contextual sense without the first) remains without a citation. It doesn't tie in at all with the narrative or what the sources say. Most of the contradictory material actually dates from the very earliest incarnations of the article and seems to have been superceded by sourced material which paints the established narrative that Chill Out was a KLF work at Trancentral and not from the Land of Oz. That's not to say that rumours don't persist that Paterson was involved.

Paterson and Cauty did indeed play live together at the Land of Oz, and there is some crossover between early works of the Orb such as the Peel Sessions version of "A Huge Ever Growing Pulsating Brain That Rules from the Centre of the Ultraworld" and early versions of 3 a.m. Eternal (published and/or bootlegged), besides the controversy over who really made Space (a bootleg of which, called Space (The Orb version) does exist).

The only recording from the Land of Oz that I can think of off the top of my head is "What Time Is Love?" (Live at the Land of Oz) on The "What Time Is Love?" Story. The recording is indisputably credited to The KLF (whether Alex was there is probably lost to the mists of time, alas). I'm listening to the recording now... it does contain some samples which later appeared on Chill Out. This may well have been the recording the editor back in the dark ages was thinking of.

Just to add yet more amusement, Alex Paterson reportedly collated The "What Time Is Love?" Story at The KLF's request :)

Best I can do is remove the unreferenced sentences which cause the contradictions, and see if I can find any references about WTIL at The Land of Oz and/or about Paterson's involvement. --kingboyk (talk) 17:34, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

I removed the unreferenced stuff, and then put back a mention of the claims that Paterson was involved by copying the citations used for the same claim in The Orb. Diff

I can't find any reliable sources about 3am Live At The Land of Oz at the moment, but I did find some further muddying of the waters: 1) Madrugada Eterna had already been released in 1989; maybe the whole Chill Out album had been recorded by then but if not it casts doubts on the one-live-take claims; 2) The Orb, which is a featured article, says that the Paterson and Cauty sessions which led to Chill Out happened in 1990 but Madrugada was released in 1989! I've reused their references but am not sure I personally trust these books which were written some years after the event; if Cauty and Paterson were working on Chill Out in 1990 they got it out pretty quickly given it was released on 5 Feb! 3) the What Time Is Love? article claims in a footnote, without any reference, that the 3am Live At The Land of Oz session was actually DJed by Alex Paterson and Jimmy Cauty (i.e. The Orb and not The KLF)!

The picture is very muddy with regards to these early ambient recordings by The KLF, Space and The Orb, and in particular whether work was by Cauty and Paterson, Cauty and Drummond, or Cauty/Drummond/Paterson; that there was a lot of cross-pollination is certain. I'm afraid we probably have accept that some of the facts are known only to these 3 people and are lost to history.

I added (in a not at all attractive, drive by manner as I couldn't see where to put it) a mention of Madrugada's 1989 release along with info commented out which I don't have sources for diff

I can't really do anything further about this without reliable sources and an excess of free time, I'm afraid :/ Maybe Orb expert User:Wickethewok can help out.

Incidentally, a general note to anybody reading: The Orb article has 4 paragraphs on Cauty and Paterson, and may contain some material and citations which can be reused in KLF articles (older refs are likely already shared as we worked together back in the day, but anything added since 2008 by which time WP:KLF had pretty much shut down, probably not). --kingboyk (talk) 19:05, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Samples, sources

Someone un-commented out this section, which introduced discussion ("the above claims...", "i've commented out...") in the article. So I undid the whole edit. But there might be interesting things here if they could be properly sourced. (If not, I guess it should be removed from the source comletely.)

• A panning sound from Pink Floyd's "On the Run" on The Dark Side of the Moon.
• "Pings" from Pink Floyd's "Echoes" on the album Meddle.
• Tuvan (Mongolian) throat singing, thought to be from Tuva — voices from the centre of Asia on Smithsonian/Folkways Records or from the soundtrack to the BBC TV program The Mongolians.
• "Deep, bassy, glooping noises" possibly from Brian Eno's Ambient 4: On Land album.
• The above claims may be correct but they currently lack references or are not definite
• Other sound effects include shepherds talking in a strange language, sheep, cow bells and sheep dog barks.
• U.S. radio recordings, including Dr. Williams, a mad preacher snake oil salesman.
• I've commented out the above. There are no sources.

/skagedal^talk 10:03, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Some of this information comes from this text file which is itself unsourced. The Mongolian singing is in the same style as the recordings on Folkways' Voices from the Centre of Asia (and Musics of the Soviet Union, which also has Mongolian singing), but listening to "Dream Time in Lake Jackson" and comparing them all, none of the pieces are exactly the same. For example this recording sounds very much like the recording at the end of "Jackson", but none of the verses are exactly the same, even accounting for pitch shifting. I wonder where they got it. -Ashley Pomeroy (talk) 19:57, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Car crash kid's name was Jack Atsidakos

It took me years to find out how to spell this kid's name, but I'm not editing the article because I can't find a good source for citation. However it's worth recording that the audio sample from the newscast about the car crash in the track Madrugada Eterna regards a high school student named Jack Atsidakos. This scanned page from his high school yearbook (Kennedy High, Bellmore NY, 1987) is a memorial to his death: http://www.e-yearbook.com/yearbooks/Kennedy_High_School_Maze_Yearbook/1987/Page_203.html

This circa 2007 forum thread for Bellmore, NY residents contains discussion by his peers regarding his death as well as mention of the news coverage being sampled in the song: http://www.topix.com/forum/city/bellmore-ny/T3QOM6I5S5L8QMOGS/p31

This "shoutbox" for the track contains a post from "NYGator" in August 2010 regarding his personal relationship with the deceased: http://www.last.fm/music/The+KLF/_/Madrugada+Eterna/+shoutbox

Bellmore, NY is approximately 9 miles from the Lindencrest Diner in Lindenhurst, NY by way of Merrick Rd. The city, road and diner are named in the recording.

Perhaps another contributor can use this info to find a proper source for citation so that the info may be included in the main article.

Doctorgage (talk) 21:23, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

The Radio news clip on the track explains how Mr Jack Atsidakos was working at his dads Lindenhurst Diner just before the car crash,A Mr Nandos Atsidakos is still today listed as Vice President of the company that owns the Lindenhurst Diner. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.192.103.144 (talk) 23:33, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

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