Talk:Banten

About subdivison

A kecamatan is a subdistrict. On the other hand, there are two kinds of Indonesian district (Daerah Tingkat II or litteraly "2nd Level Territory" ): regency (Kabupaten) and municipality (Kotamadya). The difference is that a "Kabupaten" is a rural district and a "Kotamadya" is an urban district. Bye Meursault2004 23:42, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Bantam

Bantam (city) should be merged in here. Jpatokal 15:28, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Kujang link

The link 'Kujang' in Culture points to a totally different item. Nothing changed yet as I can't make a page about the 'Kujang' mentioned here. Indahnesia 12:48, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I have de-wikilinked it. Now it's red, waiting for somebody to create Kujang as a traditional weapon. How about you? :-) — Indon (reply) — 13:33, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Banten seal.gif

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Bantenese

As far as i know, there's no such ethnic group called Bantenese. This term probably point to the peoples living in Banten area, and according to historical records/inscriptions, those peoples are Sundanese. Significant (and probably drastic) changes in the community/population structure happened when Banten became an independent territory (Banten was one of Sundanese international ports besides Sunda Kalapa, and some others along the north coast of Western part of Java) which was supproted by muslims from Cirebon & Mataram (lots of them are Javanese, on my opinion). But, still, we can define their ethnicity as Sundanese, Javanese, Chinese, and others, or mixed between them, but not as an independent ethnicity called 'Bantenese'. --kandar 10:05, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

The data from BPS for the year 2000 census lists 4.1 million Bantenese as living in Indonesia. You can see the data here: [1]. If 4.1 million people call themselves Bantenese in the census and not Sundanese, Javanese or Chinese, who are we to argue? We should be directly citing the information provided by the census results and not make our own interpretations. (Caniago 11:03, 3 October 2007 (UTC))

I wonder how valid these data are (even it was published formally by BPS)? They are using their own interpretation though... I might can compare this case with saying that I am Garutese (Garut people). Wait and see, when and how we or others describe 'Bantenese'. :D --kandar 12:08, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Kandar, I think Caniago is right about Bantenese. After I searched sources about it, the ethnic group exists, at least among anthropologists of Indonesia, and it is different than Badui (Kanekes). Here what I've found:

1. CIA fact book (Banten = 2%, Sundanese = 15%).
2. UN Statistics 1985—2002 (see page 30)
3. A report about Betawi social study by Prabowo Hendro, a PhD student from UGM, also defines Banten as a separate ethnic group (see pg. 3).

and so on. It seems that scientists have defined Banten as a separate one than Sundanese. — Indon (reply) — 13:00, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

My favourite so far is "SOEMAWIDJAJA..it's a sundanese name, even i would never being considered as a sundanese, i'm a bantenese!!hahaha...and i'm proud of it!!!" [2] (Caniago 13:26, 3 October 2007 (UTC))

Yeah, but unfortunately it's a blog. — Indon (reply) — 13:29, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Sure, not a reliable source, but ethnic groups have a lot to do with how people identify with each other. (Caniago 13:33, 3 October 2007 (UTC))

Asep: And Chaniago, who is a genetically Padang, cannot be classified as Bantenese as an ethnic. If Chaniago, who is living in Banten is classified as Bantenese, so is the case for Sundanese living there. So, it is not logical to differentiate Sundanese and Bantenese as Chaniago has done.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.181.249.244 (talk • contribs)

Caniago hasn't "done" any classification. 4.1 million people in the year 2000 Indonesian census called themselves Bantanese instead of Sundanese. This data has been reported by BPS, and now we are adding it to Wikipedia. Its simple, why don't you get it? (Caniago 04:07, 4 October 2007 (UTC))

Yes, it is simple and it is not about logic/reasoning/deductions, but about verification thru reliable sources not your own reasoning. Ie, wikipedia is not about truth, but verifiability. If you can't verify your views with such WP:RS then the case is closed.

No WP:RS, no case, no arguments.--Merbabu 04:13, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Asep: But Bantenese here is not as an ethnic but as a collection of people lliving there (Sunda, Java, Betawi and other ethnis like Padang. Thus, people must use terminilogi Banten people not Bantenese. In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banten, you still classify Bantenese as a distinct ethnic group and differentiate it with Sundanese, Javanese, etc. OK, I will find out more reliable resource instead of Singapore / foreign resource as Caniago has done.

Since you are so mistrustful of foreigners, I suggest you give Badan Pusat Statistik a telephone call. You will find they give you exactly the same data (you may have to pay for it though) as is cited in the article, since its from the same place. (Caniago 04:58, 4 October 2007 (UTC))

Hahaha... But still, i didn't found any definition about bantenese in all those references. About 'sumawijaya', heheh, in fact it is a typical sundanese name. It is not about claiming that "i am bantenese, and not sundanese." ethnic is something genetic, where we can trace who our ancestors are. It might be similar with Betawi, whose ancestors are still around sundanese (plus other 'immirants' yg telah bercampur gaul dalam waktu yg lumayan lama sehingga membentuk apa yg kita lihat sekarang--sorry, nulis in english makes me pegel-pegel). Anyway, i am not in a position to judge that someone are sundanese, buginese, or anything. but about ethnicity, we have two point of view. Culturally, i am sundanese, but genetically, i am 'indo' Sunda-Jawa, and it is not valid to say that i am sundanese or javanese. it's depends on the context. But when it is entering statistical reports, what should i say? Thats what was happened. maaf kalo 'bahasa inggris' saya bukan bahasa inggris :D --kandar 15:53, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I would recommend reading the ethnic groups article; they are not necessarily based upon ancestry. My opinion is that cultural and linguistic traits are far more important than ancestry. Here's an article abstract which defines the Bantenese group in terms of linguistics: [3] (Caniago 16:54, 3 October 2007 (UTC))

I'll second Caniago's note that genetics are somewhat immaterial to ethnicity. Even linguistics can be utterly irrelevant. Witness, for example, Croatians and Serbians, whose language and "genetics" are nearly identical, but who often consider themselves to speak different languages and be different peoples. There is no set of ethnic "facts" to appeal to--people make their own claims to ethnicity and states very selectively codify them. Ethnicity is something in the mind and something in the state. When a state suddenly pays attention to an "ethnicity," we should pay close attention to the state. ;) --Smilo Don 18:30, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Kandar, please note the difference between race and ethnic group. Ethnicity connotes shared cultural, linguistic, or religious traits. Race, by contrast, connotes shared biological (genetic or phenotypic) traits. Do you think that Javanese and Sundanese have different genetical/phenotypical characteristics? — Indon (reply) — 00:56, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Bantenese share the same culture with Sundanese, they share the same language with Sundanese (unfortunately, article about Bantenese says that they speak Indonesian), and they also share the same majority religion with Sundanese. Those who born or/and grow or/and lives in Banten can call themselves as Bantenese, and ofcourse the native Sundanese too...[4]:

"Dari segi kewilayahan, orang Banten adalah orang yang lahir dan bertempat tinggal atau paling tidak dibesarkan di wilayah yang terbentang dari selat Sunda sampai dengan sungai Cisadane yang berbatasan dengan Jakarta.... itu yang pertama. Yang kedua, orang Banten adalah orang Sunda asli..."

No, I don't think that Javanese & Sundanese have different genetical characteristics, but the fact said so. A study on Indonesian population genetics observed three clusters of Indonesian populations (Sumatra-Jawa-Kalimantan, Sulawesi-Nusa Tenggara, and Nusa Tenggara-Papua), and variations in population characteristics were noted. Ssssttt.... I wont give you the reference, its still secret! Heheh...

In terms of linguistics, there are no principal differences between Sundanese in Banten and Garut, for example. The difference observed (polite vs impolite) were based on external factor: Priangan as a vassal of Sultan Agung's Mataram, so that they also adopted the Javanese's 'undak-usuk bahasa'. Some of Sundanese in remote areas (who were not reached by the polite Priangan Sundanese) such as Bogor, Southern Garut & Cianjur, again for example, share the similiar Sundanese 'variant' with Bantenese (minus Jawa-Serang/Reang influence).

Namun, mau gimana juga gak mungkin maksa. Kalo mereka katakan mereka 'anu', dan bukan 'una', ya let it be aja... Lebih banyak, lebih seru, gpp dibilang etnis baru juga... --kandar 18:46, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Drop it please, the horse is already dead. — Indon (reply) — 08:46, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Dear Indon,

Chaniago used old reference concerning Banten population. He refers to a source dated back to 2003. Actually, BPS Provinsi Banten, in cooperation with Bappeda Provinsi Banten, had published Banten Dalam Angka 2005. In Banten Dalam Angka 2005, we cannot find word bantenese. So how can we support chaniago opinion concerning bantenese population amounting to about 50%?

But you do not make correction on it. Even, you have added wrong correction to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banten by writing a phrase "Banten mainly consists of Bantenese, Sundanese and Javanese[6]". Meanwhile reference no.6 (Guillot, Claude (1990). The Sultanate of Banten. Gramedia Book Publishing Division) doesn't mention the phrase at at all. I think, we'd better to delete Chaniago false data and the phrase you have made from the URL.

Thank you for your consideration.--Serayu 07:06, 31 October 2007 (UTC)--Serayu 07:07, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, now you have put the reference. That's okay. Before you only put "Banten Dalam Angka (2005)" which is ???? by a general reader. — Indon (reply) — 10:12, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

My understanding is that the Indonesian censuses are only once every 10 years, with the last one being in 2000 and the next one due in 2010. If this is the case, just what does this 2005 data consist of? It certainly can't be a "census" as you have written. I hope you aren't falsifying information just so you can publish your biases to the rest of the world. We have have plenty of references to the Bantenese ethnic group across multiple reliable sources, so there will be no censoring of information from this article thank-you. Please wait a few years more and we'll see what results the 2010 census provides. I suggest you start to campaign now to convince people not to list themselves as Bantenese next time! You'll have to do it across Indonesia, and particularly in Banten and Lampung. (Caniago 16:02, 31 October 2007 (UTC))

So the case with what you have done stupid, you have put the data of 2003. It is strange if you deny the current survey conducted by BPS Provinsi Banten and Bappeda Banten. Wikipedia in Bahasa Indonesia also uses the data from them. Please check and download the figures from Banten Dalam Angka 2005 from official web site of Banten Provincial Government. I do not know why a stranger like you want to manipulate figures.--Serayu 02:44, 1 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ciserayu (talk • contribs)

The data, as it has been explained to your before, is from the 2000 census. The only thing relating to 2003 is the year the book containing the census data was published. You say your data is from a website; please provide the address. Your allegations of manipulation are baseless and point to an inability to understand was has been explained to you repeatedly and/or a total absence of rational counter-arguments. (Caniago 15:10, 1 November 2007 (UTC))

(unindent) Please discuss the content, not the editor. — Indon (reply) — 08:37, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

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