Talk:Lip sync

Lip-Synch

How correctly does wiki want to spell its titles? I know the oligopoly of software companies thought it would be cute to write the word "sync" on all of our programs, but as far as I can tell, synch is short for synchronize like psych is short for psychology, that is, we don't split the chi sound in half. At least merriam-webster has the preferred spelling to be lip-synch, including both h and hypen. Hate to be a spelling nazi, but it's the title...and I've had this beef since I was 12 when n-sync came out. EDIT: OED has lip-sync. We're at least missing a hyphen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.133.237.171 (talk) 07:40, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

I second the comment above. Despite the magisterial OED's assertion, "lip-sync" is doubtfully "the proper spelling" of this abbreviation. (Tom Wolfe, for one, uses "synch" to abbreviate "synchronize" throughout his well-known New Journalistic book on Ken Kesey and the 1960s counterculture, The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test.) It also leads to the present participial form "lip syncing," which looks as if it ought to be pronounced (I render this phonetically) "lip-sinsing." Mucketymuck (talk) 04:31, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

Miming Extended

As most live acts today employ some method (eg DAT) to prerecord their live concerts the section on miming should be expanded and eventually moved to its own article. Researchers aren't going to get much information from the music industry for obvious reasons. All the more incentive for Wikipedia to pursue this.

animation

Computer animation is far from the only type of animation to use lip-sync. The article has ben updated to reflect such. --b. Touch 20:42, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Isn't there a special term for the synching that is done translations of animation? Maybe it's just an anime fan term--I'm not sure. gK ¿? 21:12, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Audio video Lip Sync

Lip-sync error is a widespread problem and not limited to any specific equipment but occurs anytime the video is delayed more than the audio.

The best explanation I have seen on any of the forums was from the member above who indicated it might take 60 ms audio leading the video to cause a user to notice it. We call that the "threshold of recognition" and it varies from 15 ms for some users to over 90 ms for others. When video delays add up causing a cumulative total greater than your particular "threshold of recognition" it will bother you since in nature audio can never be ahead of the event which produced it and our brains can't process that impossibility. Lagging audio is a natural phenomenon as sound travels about 1 ms per foot so it is much less noticeable.

Unfortunately, however, once that threshold is passed and the lip-sync error is noticed most viewers can detect and are then bothered by much smaller errors in some cases down to a few ms if they are really focusing on it. Some newer Av Amps also offer a compensating lip-sync audio delay but all that I have seen put it in set-up where you can't see the video and hear the audio while adjusting it. Most only have a single delay setting which isn't adequate since things like progressive scan conversion add about 35 ms of video delay so you really need different delays for different sources.

Ironically, the high end displays like LCD, DLP, and Plasma with their video processing requirements and inherently slower displays are often the "straw that breaks the camels back" pushing the video delay beyond that "threshold of recognition" and the larger image size of Hi Deff have made the problem worse.

• * *

Your TV (and my HLN617W1) have a video processing time that's longer than most TVs out there. It's specified at 60ms max. That is the threshold where most people will begin to notice the delay. If the source signal also has the video delayed, as it often does, added to your TV's video processing time, you begin to notice the sync issue. So, it's not caused by the TV or the source alone, it's a combination of added delay. Samsung is fixing the sets to lower the delay range down into 40ms, for those customer that complain.

References

All the accusations of lip-synching by specific performers should be referenced or removed. What we have now is a lot of rumors and guesses (both good and bad guesses). If you can't find a ref to cite to back up the claim—not that there was actual lip-synching, which is usually controversial, but just whether there was a claim of lip-synching—then it should be removed. Everyking 02:35, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I removed the whole section as none of them has sources. BJ^Talk 07:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Just a note -- I wrote my masters thesis a bunch of years ago about lip syncing and it in cludes many references and sources. Feel free to mine it for documentation. Here is the table of contents -- if you think it is useful, email me through the link on this page and tell me how/where to post the whole darned thing for posterity's sake. http://worldcatlibraries.org/oclc/30709834?tab=details

Actors Lip syncing to songs

When watching some TV dramas I've noticed that the actors are lip synching to music in the finale, could someone help put that in. Luckystars 22:35, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

What is "Lip singing"?

In the lede it states People often get this term mixed up with "lip singing." What is that? there is no article about it and no expalnation of what it is or why someone would confuse the two. Benjiboi 18:18, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

"Lip singing" is what people who do not know the correct term think they hear when someone says "lip syncing." I think it is a mistake to validate this error, as the current article appears to do.

Verdun Kid (talk) 13:31, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Lip sync#Lip-synching in music section too long

This section should be broken up with subsections for readability and clarity. Benjiboi 17:38, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Merge proposal

I know the two are error-ridden, but I hope that there is a consensus to merge lip sync error into this article. Maybe if the two are combined, the attention that this article gets will improve the former article. --Kannie | talk 01:46, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm mixed on the proposal and Lip sync error is all of how many days old? Perhaps that concept could be developed a bit better to encompass the technical aspects that would seem inappropriate here and then summarized in this article. Personally I would give TVtech some time, a month maybe?, to flush that article out a bit and provide some external links for those who deal in the issue or wish to learn more. My hunch is this article is attracting more pop culture hits so agree that two articles may make more sense in the long run. Benjiboi 02:36, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Merge proposal comment

The issue of singers lip syncing their music and the technical lip sync problem experienced in television systems are so diverse that merging everything that comments on one or the other seems unproductive. I personally would like to see the two split into entirely distinct subjects. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TVtech (talk • contribs) 02:12, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll comment here rather than that article for now. It would be quite helpful to introduce more industry related articles and links so anyone interested in that field can learn more even if we provide a short summary. It would be best to expand the article so the general reader can better understand that it impacts their daily life if they ever watch television or related media. Benjiboi 02:38, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup

I think that the phrase 'lip synch' should be changed to 'lip sync' (or vice-versa) to keep it tidy and try and get the 'cleanup' banner removed.81.158.160.138 (talk) 21:20, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

 Done ~Kvng (talk) 16:03, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

See Also

Drag queens? WHAT?!?!

Yeah, I was like WTF!, too. I'll remove it since it has nothing to do with the article... Tell me if I'm wrong. Someone963852 (talk) 21:36, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Music video lip syncs?

Do singers just mouth the words during the video shoots or do they actually sing the song? TyVulpine (talk) 01:38, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Probably varies depending on the artiste and situation - actually singing along would probably look more authentic, while miming might be used during dance routines - or if the singer just gets embarrassed in front of the film crew! 92.234.48.114 (talk) 04:06, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Generally, for a music video, the whole song is pre-recorded in a studio (unless the video contains live footage from a concert), which ensures a high audio quality and more effective filming of the video - you don't have to do several takes for the music (Film studio time being mre expensive than audio studio time) and both artists and crew concentrate on the filming/acting process. -- megA (talk) 15:24, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Some gripes with the RPG section

(Role-playing games:) "Because of the sheer amount of information conveyed through the game, the majority of communication is done through the use of scrolling text."
This looks very outdated. I can only name the Dragon Age and Mass Effect series right now, where there is no scrolling text at all, instead full lip sync for cutscenes as well as for in-game comments (even one-liners and taunts) by the characters. I think that's the norm nowadays, except for "simplified" systems, which I don't know enough about...

"New RPGs, however, usually use some degree of voice overs. These games are typically for computers or modern console systems and include such games as Mass Effect and The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. In these full voice over games, lip sync is crucial."
Voice over means a person off-screen is talking or doing a narration. (non-diegetic text) You don't need lip sync for voice-overs.

It should also be noted that modern game engines support auto-generated and localized lip-syncing, which means that lip movements are automatically created by the engine and change according to language spoken.

Correct me if I'm wrong... -- megA (talk) 15:21, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Spelling

The article uses both "lip-syncing" and "lip-synching" spellings. Although both are acceptable it might make sense to unify the spelling within the same article. Longdehua (talk) 11:40, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I propose that Lip-synching in music be merged into Lip sync. Seems like a duplication to me. SergeWoodzing (talk) 06:10, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Shall we? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 20:21, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with your merger proposal, but a help tag doesn't belong here. Primefac (talk) 20:26, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

I do not understand your objection to my use of the help tag in this context. I think I asked a question about using Wikipedia. Here's one more: how do we use Wikipedia when there has been no objection to a merger proposal for several months? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 20:34, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

There are many overlapping sections that need to be merged. Even here, most of the Lip sync article is about musis. So I don't understand the logic of creating a separate "Lip sync in music" page. werldwayd (talk) 23:31, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. That's my point exactly. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 23:45, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

The "Help me" template is for help using Wikipedia. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:51, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

It is, but your original usage was incorrect. Asking "what happens when there's no objection" is different. If there has been no dissent, then merge away. Primefac (talk) 14:12, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Thank you! Started this now and then had to run due to emergency. Hope to be back to clean it up soon. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:16, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

Re: Beyoncé

@SergeWoodzing:: Well actually The Telegraph source also affirms she used a pre-recorded track, but chooses to use the headline "Beyoncé admits lip synching" for what I think is senstaionalism. Other sources that reported that this was a pre-recorded track include CNN, ABC and Reuters. Some of the articles have short clips of the subsequent press conference she discuses the National Anthem performance in, but they disappointingly don't use the full conference. CNN, however, provides a transcript here, and I think the question from CNN in that conference is quite important:

FUTTERMAN: Steve Futterman from CBS News. Can I clarify one thing that you said. You were sing along with the prerecorded track. At the inauguration were you actually singing, as well, or did any sound come out of your vocal cords during the national anthem?

BEYONCE: Typically, they have you sing a prerecorded track because anything could go wrong. So, I did sing along with the prerecorded track.

FUTTERMAN: So, you actually were singing and the prerecorded track was being played, as well?

BEYONCE: Yes.

It's signficant because Beyoncé was singing with assistance, but singing nonetheless. This is different to lip synching, which the Oxford English Dictionary defines as to: "move the lips silently in synchronization with a pre-recorded soundtrack". I think these concepts are substantially different from another, and using a picture from the inaguaration is misrepresenting what happened. —JennKR | ☎ 20:51, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

This source provides only what the singer claims. That claim is not in itself a reliable ( = independent) source to substantiate what actually took place. If she had sung simultaneously with a recording of her voice singing, that would obviously have been noticeable, not to say technically sloppy, and not a very good way to perform the song. I'm very sceptical that a technically odd and artistically risky performance like that took place on that occasion. As you can see, Futterman also seems sceptical and surprised that she would claim such a thing. I tend to agree with him. I think she lip synched, and that's what all the reliable sources say she did. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:03, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

PS We could rewrite the caption like this:

• Beyoncé lip syncs (though she says she also used her vocal chords to some extent) at the second inauguration of President Obama in 2013.

Would that make her look better or worse? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:09, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

I think you've mischaracterised Futterman's question and his follow-up. I don't think he is sceptical of Beyoncé's claim, I think he's confused about the nature of what she's saying, and that's why he presses her into a yes/no answer. Nor do "all of the reliable" sources say that she lip synched; the ones I've provided report what she said at the press conference. They don't say "well Beyoncé said this, but what we all really think is she did this". —JennKR | ☎ 21:20, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

No, that re-write would be fallacious as the second part ("she says she also used her vocal chords") affirms that the example wouldn't be lip synching, rendering it useless. —JennKR | ☎ 21:20, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

What's the big deal? She syncronized her lips to a recording of her voice. I don't see that it's important whether or not she also sang along a bit, a note and a syllable here and there. She lip synched. Let's be reasonable! Why else would they play a recording of her singing, for all to hear? Do we need to wait for sound technicians to forensically analyse recordings of the broadcasts of the inauguration to find our how many syllables she sang along with and how many she silently lip-synched? Wouldn't be that hard to do, my studio might even be able to do it, but could be embarrassing. What she actually did should be obvious, even to you. But is it somehow shameful? Does she regret what she did? Why, if so? To me, the whole thing is getting silly. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:39, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

The reason why it's important whether "she sang along a bit" is because, by definition, that is not lip synching. I refer you to the definition above, to move the lips silently in synchronization with a pre-recorded soundtrack. Beyoncé explains that she did not move her lips silently, but sung accompanied by a recording of her own voice. This is different from lip synching where there is no singing whatsoever: the person mouths the words of the song. If we were to accept your definiton of lip synching (that it's not important whether someone "sang along a bit") then every instance of singing would be lip synching, when this isn't true as its a clearly defined practice . The "big deal" is that the primary picture of this article, which intends to demonstrate an example of lip synching, refers to something which has been shown to not be lip synching at all. Furthermore, the incident is not even mentioned in the article at any other point. Why would we stick a picture of someone not lip synching on top of an article about lip synching? —JennKR | ☎ 23:33, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

She lip synched, and the caption has now been adjusted to reflect the fact that she also voice synched to some extent, making her performance even more interesting in this context. If she didn't lip synch they would obviously not have played the song with her recorded voice, at high very risk of having her performance fail technically and sound weird. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 05:09, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Btw, most dictionaries do not include "silently" in the definition. Whether or not the vocal chords also are used to some extent is not relevant to the syncronization of the lips, which is all the term describes. What the audience hears is what's important, and in this case the recorded song was clearly dominant in her performance. Shall we have the inauguation audio analysed? Wherever the song can be heard both with ther recorded voice and her live voice will then be disclosed (I believe that's nowhere), and I can get that published by a reliabe source. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 05:21, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I think you've misunderstood what lip synching means. If we accept your definition, whether or not the vocal chords also are used to some extent is not relevant, it means that any time a person moves their lips they are said to be lip synching. You can tell from the first sentence of this article that "lip synching" is not a literal term, but it refers to a specific practice. Also, your assertion that "most dictionaries do not include silently in the definition" is simply not true:

Oxford English Dictionary: "move the lips silently in synchronization with a pre-recorded soundtrack"

Merriam Webster: "to pretend to sing or say in synchronization with recorded sound"

Collins: "to mouth (prerecorded words) on television or film"

Cambridge: "performers who lip-synch songs pretend to be singing them when in fact they are just moving their lips

All of the dictionaries I've consulted contain the same inference: that lip synching is when someone pretends to be singing, not when somebody is singing. The practice of acompanying your singing with a pre-recorded tack is covered on the backing track article where what Beyoncé did on this occasion is described. You can look at the bottom of that page where lists are provided of singers who use backing tracks to certain or full extent for further examples; as you can see its a widespread practice that does not "fail technically" or "sound weird". To address your second point, it is not the job for Wikipedia editors to analyse anything but sources. If you or someone you know attempted to analyse this audio, and published it drawing your own inferences, I believe you would be in violation of our guidelines on original research. This action also wouldn't help your neutrality in this dispute. Although I did stumble across this Slate article where a musician concurs that there was live singing and he provides points of reference where this can be sought. By definition this means that the performance was not lip synched as that is where you "pretend" to move your lips.—JennKR | ☎ 15:04, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I've worked with live and lip-synching stage performers since 1970, and first saw lip-synching done in an American TV studio in 1959, so I'm hardly going to learn anything on the subject from you. How about let's have some input from somebody else? You keep repeating yourself as if I didn't know English. What's worse, "pretend" is re: singing not lip movements, and "silent" is not included in the dictionaries descriptions. If your going to twist things like that, away from the facts, nobody is going to be able to have a rational discussion with you. I certainly don't know how. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:59, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I've started a RfC below. —JennKR | ☎ 20:21, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

RfC: Image in the lip syncing article

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This dispute (which you can read directly above) concerns whether an image of an incident involving American singer Beyoncé should feature in the lead of the lip sync article. The incident is the singer's live performance of the American national anthem during the second inaugration of President Obama. News organisations reported that the singer lip synced her performance; she later clarified in a press conference that she sung with a pre-recorded track.

Discussion

As I've explained above, I think lip syncing and singing with a pre-recorded track are sufficiently different practices within the music industry. This article, which concerns the former, is where a singer does not sing, but pretends to sing to give the effect of singing. I looked at some dictionary definitions which state it is to "move the lips silently in synchronization with a pre-recorded soundtrack (Oxford)"; "to pretend to sing or say in synchronization with recorded sound (Merriam Webster)" or "pretend to be singing them when in fact they are just moving their lips (Cambridge)". At a press conference, Beyoncé was pressed to confirm to a CBS reporter whether she sung: "FUTTERMAN (CBS): "So, you actually were singing and the prerecorded track was being played, as well?" BEYONCE: "Yes." This is the practice of using a backing track: "an audio or MIDI recording that musicians play or sing along to in order to add parts to their music which would be impractical to perform live."

The key distinction here is whether someone is singing. I think it's clear from the dictionary definitions (and even other sources) that lip syncing is a clearly-defined practice, one where someone pretends to sing and not where someone actually is singing (albeit, accompanied in this incident). I don't think we should be using a picture of an incident in the lead of an article that does not actually represent what it seeks to describe. The lead of an article is arguably meant to be an article's most accessible part: where we set out exactly what something is. I don't think it's best to be using misleading examples, especially when the incident referred to in the image is not mentioned at any point in the article. Best, —JennKR | ☎ 20:21, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

• Exclude. There's enough ambiguity over this situation that it should not be highlighted as a prominent example in the lead of this article. It should be trivially easy to find a less ambiguous example. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 00:21, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
• Exclude. I agree that it would be better to find a less ambiguous (and less controversial) example than the Beyonce example. It's not crucial to the subject of the article itself. --FuriousFreddy (talk) 07:12, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
• Exclude For reasons stated above -Xcuref1endx (talk) 04:26, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Here's what I think is going on in this case (based on who my opponent seems to be in the discussion above): Biyonsay lip-synched at the inaugural, which was accurately reported in reliable media. But she doesn't want that revealed on WP. Someone working for her or in her interest is trying to get it removed, though, to me reliable sources have it that she lip-synched. I may be wrong, and I'll leave it up to other neutral editors to decide whether or not this action to remove what I consider a fact should succeed or not.

Please note that no reliable source quotes any sound technician or anyone else reliable to substantiate the claim that Biyonsay did not lip sync!

The image is particularly interesting because of this dispute, as it also illustrates the shame that some people feel should be associated with lip sync. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:39, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

• Include: so what if it is controversial. If it is supported by reliable sources it can be included if the original intention was to give an example of it. Actually, in my opinion lip sync can be controversial at times and Wikipedia has to reflect that as well. --lTopGunl (talk) 00:20, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on Lip sync. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110512053055/http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/01/arts/music/01NELS.html?pagewanted=1 to http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/01/arts/music/01NELS.html?pagewanted=1

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 16:11, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Spelling

The title is lip sync yet the article most often spells it "lip synching" Enigma^msg 19:13, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

The 'h' is normally added to a word where a vowel follows the 'c' and otherwise not. Thus lip synch on its own is not really correct and is liable to me mispronounced. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 18:47, 19 April 2019 (UTC)