Talk:Burrel (town)

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The "most terrible old prison" seems a bit awkward. Perhaps it should be rephrased. What is the source for this info (there were many prisons, I don't know whether this one was the worst)? Also, did you mean to say Besnik Shehu (instead of Mehmet)? You should probably keep in mind that the Shehu family was also responsible for terrible attrocities, so perhaps they shouldn't be made into too big of a victim. There were many more innocent people that were persecuted. Dori 13:49, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)


--My uncle ( PAC MARTINI)when he was brought to the Burrreli prison he was told: 

   "This is Burrel where you enter and don't return" 
 This was the fate of many innocent people in albania, one of those men was my grandfather Zef Martini which died in the prison of Burreli and his remains were never recovered. All he did his whole life was fight for his country!

It is very sad that Shehu family members were brought to this prison couse they had nothing in common with these prisoners!! They were not there because they disagreed with what was happening to the country and it's citizens, they were enjoying all the privileges that communist regime could offer! They just got a taste of their own medicine!


Yes you are right, of course Shehu's father was very much guilty himself, and his atrocities began from the war time and continued specially in 1948, and he was the "main henchman" afterwards. But I think this diesn't mean that his son was guilty or that he wasn't an enemy at least of Hoxha's but also of the regime.
I am not saying that he son was necessarily guilty, but I am saying that prior to his father's death he was probably treated much, much, much better than the rest of Albanians, at their expense. Seeing as he was part of the elite, he might have even been directly guilty of human rights violations (Just a conjecture based on how the elite acted on the population). I am just saying that we should take what Bashkim Shehu says with a grain of salt. Dori 14:27, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Yes, I agree that he was much better off than most Albanians before his father's death. And of course we should be critical about what he is saying now. But the only thing I can be suspicious of so far is the time and the exact nature of his dissent. I'll try to search more on what he actually said. In any case, dissent among the communist elite's children seems to be not unusual, good conditions even favouring it if they happen to be intelligent. So I am trying to avoid prejudice but of course also credulity. Andres 16:31, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)
The reason I mentioned these two writers is that they have described that prison in literary form. Sure this should be reworded and made clear.
Yes, the phrase "most terrible old prison" is not clear. What I meant is that 1) the prison was old and small and this made the conditions in it worse; 2) that prison was hold to be the worst place where to be inprisoned.
If you know more and more precisely and if the present wordings suggest inadequate impressions then please correct the wordings. As for now I am not able to correct this.
My source:

http://membres.lycos.fr/dnthines/al.html

OK, I'll give it a try. Dori 14:27, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Andres 14:16, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)

See [1] The prison is described as "infamous", "place of horror" and "This place is called Burel, where one can get in, but can not get out". Andres 05:40, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I am sorry, I inadvertently wrote "Mehmet Shehu" instead of "Bashkim Shehu" whom I meant. Andres 14:20, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)

No need to apologize, I just wanted to make sure before I corrected it. Dori 14:27, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)

There are other alternate forms Bureli, Burrelë, Burele. I am not sure how seriously they should be taken and whether they deserve mentioning in the main text, anyway I notice them here.

Is it normal in Albanian that names are written in alternate forms or is it an anomaly to be avoided? Andres 19:10, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The way the albanian language works (I don't know what it's called in English but I am sure there is an article on it somewhere here in Wikiland), names can get different endings. For example, you might have "I live in Burrel." or "I have seen Burrelin" -- the italics being the albanian form that would be present if the sentences were in albanian, they don't make sense in English. These spellings are both valid. Because everything is spelled as it sounds, and some people might "hear" it a bit more differently so you also have invalid (i.e. grammatically incorrect) forms such as Bureli (I think, I'm not sure myself sometimes :). This has to do with sounds that are similar such as l and ll, or e and ë, nj and ni, and so on. I mentioned a similar thing when discussing Mehmet Shehu's article. You then also have to factor in the dialect of the person (see tosk and geg in the Albanian language article). I think I should aggregate the info on the Albanian language article as it might be of interest to someone else, but first I need to find out what the technical terms are (which is why I didn't do this sooner). You'll notice that in the city articles I have put two terms of spelling which are more common in the language. There are many more that are valid, but it probably would not be usefuly to include all of them any more than you would include all the conjugational form of a verb. Dori 22:35, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I am aware of the basics of the Albanian grammar, and I can help writing about Albanian language. The basic terms are "definite form" and "indefinite form" and "cases" (such as nominative and accusative).
But I wonder how it comes that people write names in different forms (not flexions but variants). Is it because they have never seen how they are written? Another hypothesis is that as they pronounce them differently (and there is no pronunciation norm) they write them according to their different pronunciations, the pronunciation being primary, not the written form. Is there such a thing as the norm of writing (the "correct" form)? I am not aware of any other modern language with such a variation in the orthography of names. What I suspect is also that the way foreign names are written according their pronunciation is somehow connected with this issue. Andres 23:03, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Taking it to the Talk:Albanian language page as it is more appropriate there. Dori 03:05, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Burrel[edit]

BURRELI ESHTE NQYTETI ME I BUKUR VETEM SE DO PAK RREGULLIME. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.203.238.83 (talk) 13:52, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Serbia: Serbs may have been killed for organs 2 hours ago

BELGRADE, Serbia (AP) — Serbia's war crimes prosecutor wants to travel to Albania to probe allegations that Kosovo guerillas killed Serb prisoners there years ago and sold their organs.

Prosecutor Vladimir Vukcevic said Thursday his office has asked Albanian prosecutors to look into the case and talks are under way to determine when he will go there himself.

Albania could have mass graves containing the remains of slain Serbs, he added.

Kosovo and Albania have denied any knowledge of the crimes, while the EU has said it would investigate the claims.

Allegations of organ-trafficking involving Serbs killed during Kosovo's 1998-99 war first surfaced in a book by the former chief U.N. war crimes prosecutor Carla Del Ponte.

In "The Hunt: War Criminals and Me," Del Ponte wrote that, according to her sources, between 100 and 300 mostly Serb civilians were transported by truck from Kosovo to a house near the Albanian town of Burrel, about 55 miles (90 kilometers) north of the capital, Tirana.

Kosovo guerillas killed the Serbs and doctors allegedly extracted the captives' internal organs, Del Ponte wrote.

Thousands of people were killed in Kosovo as Serb security troops cracked down on ethnic Albanian separatists. The conflict ended after NATO bombed Serbia in 1999 to force it to stop attacks on ethnic Albanian civilians.

Kosovo declared independence from Serbia in February. Its independence has been recognized by over 40 countries, including the U.S. and most EU nations, but is fiercely opposed by Serbia and Russia. 167.206.75.157 (talk) 16:51, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Organ trafficking?[edit]

I am going to revert everyone who will write in Wikipedia that Burrel was connected to any Organ trafficking. Try doing that for your own cities. The source used is from a newspaper and it says "alledgedly". There is no proof whatsoever, no trial ever made. Please do not edit-war here, but discuss and don't bring that source back unless you have some good reasons behind. --Sulmues talk 18:25, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is not newspaper source! It is from book of Del Ponte, main Prosecutor of Hague Tribunal and reference is link to Human Right Watch. So please put the sentence back. --Alexmilt (talk) 18:40, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As long as the article says "alleged organ trafficking", there isn't a problem. I can understand the objections if "alleged" were omitted, but threatening to "revert everyone" is unacceptable. Oh, and by the way, Carla Del Ponte's book is definitely a reliable source. Athenean (talk) 18:53, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Unless this is proven to be a fact then no addition regarding it is useful.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:06, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, to mention that the organ trafficking is "alleged" is both adequate, and it is VERY relevant to the article. Besides, the Albanian editors will NEVER accept it as a "proven fact" no matter what. However,t hat is not a reason for including it. The organ trafficking is big, big news. I had never even heard of this place until I heard of the organ trafficking. Athenean (talk) 19:11, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing has been proven, because nothing has been tried. There is no proven fact, not even by a trial, because a trial has never happened. A newspaper reports what Human Rights Watch from New York says. So what? That's a primary source. Too close to the events. Athenean, remember that you called Chekrezi a primary source (he was writing in 1923 in a book) about events occurred in 1914. Why don't you go to the bottom of the article and use it for the following:

Human Rights Watch also urged the Serbian government to help solve the fate of the roughly 1,500 missing ethnic Albanians from the war. Human Rights Watch has documented the removal of ethnic Albanian bodies from 10 places in Kosovo in 1999. Hundreds were reburied in mass graves inside Serbia, including on a base used by the special police.

Thanks for your understanding. --Sulmues talk 19:34, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Repeating "there is no proven fact" is meaningless, that's why the organ trafficking is "alleged". The report by Human Rights Watch is not a primary source, and the stuff about the 1500 missing Albanians is completely irrelevant in this article. And by the way, since the alleged organ-trafficking took place in Kosovo, Sulmues, you are in violation of your topic ban. One more edit here or in the article and it's WP:AE. Thank you for your understanding. Athenean (talk) 19:40, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I can not understand this. Whole artical has no single reference. Where is reference for refugee camp? And for sentence with credibile reference and separate page can not be here. --Alexmilt (talk) 20:57, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly because it is an alleged incident I think we shouldn't include that and secondly it isn't related to the city of Burrel but to the area.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:39, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that is only is an alleged incident doesn't mean is not a reason for not mentioning it. Otherwise you should nominate the main article itself for deletion. Athenean (talk) 02:23, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Decline — Kedaditalk 23:45, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Burrel, Albania → Burrel — There is no other article named Burrel; Can't do the move myself as Burrel already exists and it redirects here. Cheers. — Kedaditalk 22:51, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Thanks for creating the dab, didn't know that those articles existed. Declining the move. Cheers.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Please, add this link to article

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