Talk:Perga

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Proposed merger[edit]

  • Merge. This makes sense with a redirect from the other article to here. Student7 (talk) 18:13, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge. This seems like a clear case of two names of one thing, each which got an article, hence a good idea for a merge Jztinfinity (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 05:28, 20 July 2010 (UTC).[reply]
  • Merge looks like a good home and will remove an orphan article. Blackash have a chat 23:25, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge! They are talking about the same thing. Saffron Blaze (talk) 10:49, 6 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Copyvio[edit]

User:Kaloqq has added bits of this website http://www.adiyamanli.org/aspendos.html as copy paste to this article in addition to adding a commercial website as the reference. I have already reverted one article Sillyon where he did the same thing. Pretty elaborate effort to spam links so perhaps well meaning. Saffron Blaze (talk) 09:02, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

POV-pushing and dishonest sourcing[edit]

In this edit, Cerulean Breeze (talk · contribs) claims to have "added the Hittite name with its source". Of course, they did much more than that, removing the fact that it was a Greek city (sourced to an excellent source), and replaced it with the false and unsourced claim that it was "the Lycian capital". Regarding the purported Hittite name, all we have is a source from 1992 that however does not state anything of the sort. All it says is another, even older author tentatively identified a "Parha" with Perge, and then goes on to say, without endorsing this hypothesis, that if this is correct..., i.e. a clear non-endorsement of this view. The purported cuneiform spelling of Hittite name is nowhere in the source - the user simply made it up. The claim that it was "the Lycian capital" is also patently false, as the city was not located in Lycia but in Pamphylia, and the Lycians moreover did not have a capital (they were a confederation of city-states). I'm guessing this user came up with that wording by looking at the Cambridge University Press source already in the article, but as it turns out it describes Perge as the capital of the Roman province of Lycia and Pamphylia, i.e. something completely different the so-called "Lycian capital" this user added. So we have: 1) Complete de-Hellenization, removal of any mention that it was a Greek polis, 2) addition of a made up Hittite cuneiform name, 3) presentation of an unendorsed speculation that the city may have been mentioned in Hittite records under a similar name, and 4) false and misleading claim that it was "the Lycian capital". I can't tell if it's a competence issue or intellectual dishonesty, but given the agend-pushing by this editor at other similar articles ([1]), I'm going to assume it's the latter. Khirurg (talk) 16:47, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For the Hittite name of the city, I also think that one source is not enough so I am adding eleven more sources that identify Parha with Perge below. All of them are either academic books or scholarly articles.
I did not remove any mention that says it was a Greek polis. It can still be seen in the infobox and in the history section of the article. I just changed the term “Greek city” to “Lycian city” at the beginning as Lycians/Luwians were the indigenous people there before the Greek colonization so it was originally a Lycian/Luwian city.
For the Hittite cuneiform name, one can check the transliteration of one of the Hittite documents in Gurney’s article and Seçer’s thesis which are provided below. Knowing the transliteration, I can write the cuneiform.
I never wrote it was the capital of Lycia. I only wrote that it was located in Lukka (Lycia) near the border with Tarhuntašša which is true. You can check my first revision again to see that. It is written that the city is the capital of Pamphylia Secunda of Rome not the Lycians.
According to WP:PLACE archaic names can be used as long as they are clearly marked which I did. Writing the indigenous name of a city or region is not agenda-pushing. For example, in the New Zealand article, the indigenous name Aotearoa is present.
According to WP:NPA “accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence” are considered personal attack. “Serious accusations require serious evidence, usually in the form of diffs and links.” So you can not accuse me of agenda-pushing, de-Hellenization or intellectual dishonesty.
I am also interested in ancient Greece and Rome but in the English Wikipedia, my contributions are mostly focused on the indigenous Anatolians because the Greek and Roman histories are already well written here but there is a lack of information on native Anatolians. So I am just filling the gaps.
Review of the sources that identifies Parha with Perge
· [1]: Since Parha (p. 64 ff.) has been certainly identified with Perge, any other occurrence of this place-name could considerably help in establishing the geography of its area.
· [2]: “First, it is essential to mention the identification of Hittite Parha on the Kastaraya with classical Perge on the Kestros (today Aksu Çayı)”
· [3]: “West of the Kastaraya river lies Parha/Perge”
· [4]: “The name of the ancient city/land Parha (classical Perge) is tempting, but there is no evidence to suggest a relation with Paršuhanda/Parašhanda.”
· [5]: “Bu coğrafi bölgenin, Parha’dan (Perge) Hulaya nehri (Göksu) ağzına kadar Anadolu‟nun güney sahilleri ve Kizzuvatna‟nın kuzeyini de alarak, doğuda Konya-Niğde sınırı, kuzeyde Konya-Kulu‟ya kadar uzandığı saptanmıştır.”
· [6]: “He then established a fleet and began conquering coastal cities: (1) Parha (evidently Perge on the Kaistros river in Pamphylia)”
· [7]: “The city of Parha, which belongs, we are told, to the land of Lukka to the west of the river, can be identified with classical Perge in terms of name and location”
· [8]: “However, the Pamphylian city Perge, a Greek settlement according to Greek legendary tradition, was probably the successor of Late Bronze Age Parha, which lay just outside Tarhuntassa’s western frontier. The remains of Late Bronze Age settlement that have recently come to light on the acropolis of Perge are very likely those of the city Parha.”
· [9]: “Moreover, the recent discovery of a late 2nd millennium Perge also corroborates geographical reconstructions proposed by Hittitologists. The toponym Perge is usually equated with the Hittite Parha, figuring in the Bronze Tablet in close association with the river Kaštaraya (Cl. Kestros, mod. Aksu) just near the border towns of the Tarhuntašša domain (see Forlanini, in this volume). ”
· [10]: “There was some continuity of place names also: Perge in Pamphylia is now known to have been an LBA town (Parha) ”
· [11]: “Parha=Perge ile eşitlenmektedir. Bu tüm bilim adamlarınca kabul görmüş bir eşleştirmedir.”
In the source dated 1992 that I added before, Parha is also identified with Perge:
· [12]: “In his commentary on the line Otten has argued-and he may well be right-that the Kastaraya River, which forms the (western) boundary of Tarhuntassa, is to be identified with the Classical Cestros river and that Parha is Classical Perge”. Cerulean Breeze (talk) 20:44, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You absolutely removed the fact it was a Greek polis [2], don't pretend otherwise. Since it was a Greek polis for most of its existence, and it is extremely easy to find multiple sources that describe it as such, that cannot be removed. From the sources you have posted, all I see is that the toponym "Perge" is identified with "Parha", but that's it, nothing about it being a Lycian city. If it was a Lycian city, where are the Lycian remains (rock cut tombs, etc.), like the other Lycian cities? It's not even located in Lycia to begin with. Most of the Anatolian cities were destroyed during the Bronze Age collapse, and the Greeks founded or re-founded cities at these locations, often with names derived from the old Anatolian toponyms, but Perge and many others are Greek foundations. One cannot assume continuity between the pre-Bronze Age Collapse settlement and the classical city. Khirurg (talk) 06:32, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, I don't know if you noticed, but what you added is already in the article From a bronze tablet discovered in 1986 in Hattusas, a treaty between the Hittite Great King Tudhaliya IV and his vassal, the king of Tarhuntassa, defined the latter's western border at the city "Parha" and the "Kastaraya River".[7] The river is assumed to be the classical Cestrus. West of Parha were the "Lukka Lands".[8] Parha likely spoke a late Luwian dialect like Lycian and that of the neo-Hittite kingdoms., so really nothing new there, pretty much all you did was repeat the same info in the lede, removed that it was a Greek polis, and added the cuneiform, the latter which is still WP:OR (sorry, but For the Hittite cuneiform name, one can check the transliteration of one of the Hittite documents in Gurney’s article and Seçer’s thesis which are provided below. Knowing the transliteration, I can write the cuneiform. is still not going to cut it). Khirurg (talk) 06:38, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I did not remove the fact that it was a Greek city. You can check my revision again to see this[3]. In the infobox, the ancient Greek name of the city is present and it also says Greek in the Cultures line. In the history section, it says “Perge was later a Pamphylian Greek city”. The only thing I changed was the first sentence. I changed Greek to Lycian to add the fact that it was originally a Lycian city.
“From the sources you have posted, all I see is that the toponym "Perge" is identified with "Parha", but that's it, nothing about it being a Lycian city. It's not even located in Lycia to begin with.”
It is located in Lycia. There are many sources (both Hittite and academic) that say it was a part of Lukka (Lycia) during the Bronze Age. I added five of them below. As the river of Kastaraya (Kestros/Aksu Çayı) is the border between the lands of Tarhuntassa and Lukka(Lycia) according to the Hittite sources and Parha lies just west of the river, this means it is located inside Lukka (Lycia) but very close to the Tarhuntassa border. During the Roman period, it was not a part of Lycia but a part of Pamphlyia. This is because the borders of Lycia during the Bronze Age and the Roman era were different.
“ Most of the Anatolian cities were destroyed during the Bronze Age collapse, and the Greeks founded or re-founded cities at these locations, often with names derived from the old Anatolian toponyms, but Perge and many others are Greek foundations. One cannot assume continuity between the pre-Bronze Age Collapse settlement and the classical city.”
No academic source mention that the city is completely abandoned during the Bronze Age Collapse and resettled by Greeks from scratch. On the contrary, sources talk about continuation and the Hellenization of the city starting with the 4th century BC. The native goddess of Perge, Wanassa Preiia, was referred to as Artemis for the first time in The Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax dated back to 4th century BC, proving the gradual assimilation of the city[13]. Also the Bronze Age Collapse happened around 1200 BC but the Hellenization of the city started around 4th century BC[14], 900 years after the Bronze Age Collapse.
You should check WP:NOR. Your own opinion does not matter unless it is backed up by reliable sources. I added around twenty sources in total that show Lycian Parha is the classical Perge. If you have any recent academic source that says the city was not Lycian or it was completely abandoned during the Bronze Age Collapse and rebuilt by the Greeks from scratch so Parha and Perge are different, then feel free to add it. But do not arbitrarily remove the sourced info that I added one more time. When you reverted my revision you also removed the fact that it was a Lycian/Native Anatolian foundation. You cannot remove it. This is against the rules of WP:NPOV.
“If it was a Lycian city, where are the Lycian remains (rock cut tombs, etc.), like the other Lycian cities?”
Pre-Hellenistic materials were found in the city. In the acropolis of Perge, pottery from the Late Chalcolitic Era/Late Bronze Age were found and they are similar to the Early Bronze Age pottery traditions of Westem Anatolia[15]. Infant burials from the Chalcolitic Era were also found in the city[16].
“Since it was a Greek polis for most of its existence”
This claim is definitely wrong. Since the first settlement in Perge dates back to the Late Chalcolitic Era[17] (before 3000 BC) but the Greek presence and Hellenization of the city is only dated back to Classical Antiquity (after 5th century BC), it means pre-Greek period of the city was at least around 2500 years. Greek polis of Perge lasted for around 1500 years until around 1000AD when the Seljuk Turks started to settle in the region. So, the Greek polis period is less than half of its existence.
“By the way, I don't know if you noticed, but what you added is already in the article so really nothing new there, pretty much all you did was repeat the same info in the lede”
The facts that it was a Greek city and a Roman city were repeated both in lede and in the “history” section of the article but there was no mention of the indigenous Lycians or Luwians in lede which resulted in an insufficient summary. That’s why I added the info about them there. Writing info about the indigenous peoples on lede is not forbidden, check WP:LEAD. On the contrary, it is a common thing in Wikipedia as you can see in the article about the US state New Hampshire, in the lede it is mentioned that Algonquin-speaking peoples like Abenaki lived there before and this is mentioned both in lede and in the “history” section.
Review of the Sources
[18]: “The Kast(a)raya river (cl. Kestros or Aksu) marked the southwestern border of Tarhuntašša with Parha in the Lukka Land.”
. [19]: “Parha thus occurs in the same context as the Lukka lands. ”
. [20]: West of the Kastaraya river lies Parha/Perge, and beyond are the Lukka Lands”
. [21]: “Hatta Starke, Lukka Ülkesi’nin sınırlarını “Milawanda’dan Parha’ya dek uzanan topraklar” şeklinde belirttiği de bilinmektedir (Starke, 2001: 45).”
. [22]: “KUB 21.6a II 1’-12’: “Parha, Huras[nassa, X-s]idawanda, Utih[-x ] and all the [Luk]ka-[lands] made war”,
. [23]: “The same text also mentions the city of Parha on the west side of the Kestros river, which has confidently been identified with Pamphylian Perge. West of the Kestros lay the Lukka lands, a conglomerate of independent communities with close ethnic affinities situated in the general area of classical Lycia”
. [24]: In fact, in his treaty with Kuruntiya, Tudhaliya remarks about an ongoing conflict and a possible campaign to the land of Parha (CTH 106.I i 62–64), which lay between the lands of Tarhuntašša and Lukka.”
. [25]:”Buna göre Perge’nin varlığı kesinlikle Yunanlı kolonistlere değil, Anadolu’nun en eski yerli halklarına dayanmaktadır.”
. [26]: “Perge’de ilk yerleşim Geç Kalkolitik-Erken Bronz Çağı’nda Akropolis’te başlamıştır.”
. [27]: “Auf diese Vorbemerkungen zur feldarchäologischen Basis des informationserwerbs folgen kapitelweise einblicke in einzelne Zeitabschnitte. »Die Anfänge in chalkolithischer Zeit (5.–4. Jt. v.Chr.)« (s. 14f.) sind in Form von Kleinkindbestattungen vor allem in der mittig auf demtafelberg gelegenen Fläche 1 nachzuweisen.”
. [28]: “Perge’nin yerel tanrıçası Wanassa Preiia, yine ilk kez Pseudo-Skylaks’ta “Artemis” olarak anılır. Kentin yaklaşık MÖ 3. yy daki ilk dönem sikkelerinde de Tanrıça Artemis, Yunan tipinde betimlenmiştir. Dolayısıyla Perge, ancak MÖ 4. yy da yavaş yavaş Yunanlaşan bir kent görünümündedir.” (p. 219) and “Böylece Klasik Dönem Pamphyliası için, eldeki veriler doğrultusunda şimdilik şunlar söylenebilir: Bölgenin yerleşmeleri, yerelliklerini yaklaşık olarak Hellenistik Dönem içlerine kadar sürdürmüştür” (p. 221).
. [29]: “yukarıda bahsedilen M.Ö. 6. yüzyıla ait Attik siyah figürlü keramik üzerindeki yerel diyalektteki graffito, Perge ve Pamphylia’nın en önemli tanrıçası, hatta ana tanrıça görünümündeki Perge Artemisi’nin Hellenistik Çağ içlerine kadar Wanassa Preiia şeklinde, Anadolu dilleri etkili Pamphylia lehçesinde telaffuz edilmesi, yerli kültürün bu bölgede güçlü bir unsur olduğu ve Yunanlar tarafından tamamen absorbe edilemediğinin kanıtlarıdır; aksine, yerli unsurlar yeni gelenlerin dillerine güçlü etkilerde bulunmuşlardır.” Cerulean Breeze (talk) 13:09, 26 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Regardless of where it was located, Lycia or Pamphylia (and many sources, including some of which you posted, describe it Pamphylia), it is widely described as a "Greek city" or "Greek polis" in the literature, and like I said in my earlier post, it is incredibly easy to find source after source that describes the city or its inhabitants as Greek: [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9], just to show a few. Your claim that it was "Hellenized in the 4th century BC" is false and easily debunked [10]: Settled in the early Bronze Age, Perge's Greek heritage extends the archaic, classical, and Roman periods..... As the sources show, the city was inhabited through the Byzantine period (13th century), and since the Archaic Period is dated to the eighth century BC, that's at least 2,000 years. Btw the identification of "Parha" with "Perge" is literally based on a single clay tablet [11], so at best it's tentative and plausible, but not definitive (and this is visible in the sources you have posted - their language is cautious). The Bronze Age Collapse was major catastrophe, it is not appropriate to assume any kind of continuity without evidence. Even one of the sources you have posted, describes Perge as the "successor" of "Parha", implying some kind of discontinuity event. For sure the population was mixed, as with all ancient cities, but the predominant culture was clearly Greek. The city that Apollonius of Perga was born in, was Greek city. The remains the visitor sees today, the agora, the stadium, the theater, these are Greek, not Lycian remains. There are simply too many sources describing it as a "Greek city" for that to be removed form the lede. I am open to suggestions and additions, but the descriptor "Greek city" should not be removed from the lede. Khirurg (talk) 15:48, 26 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Multiple sources I added mention that the city is Hellenized during the Hellenistic era with evidence (local names for the gods are used until the 4th century BC) but you have only one source that says "Greek heritage extends the archaic period" without any hard evidence. Also you cannot just assume that the city is abandoned and resettled by the Greeks. You still have not added any evidence on that.
The name Parha should be in the lead. Anyway, I am only here to give more information to the people about the ancient city. I am adding the name Parha without removing the term "Greek city" from the lead. Also adding more info about the Achaemenid, Greek and Roman periods of the city. Cerulean Breeze (talk) 12:48, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Problem is, not a single source explicitly refers to it as a "Lycian city". All we have is a single Hittite bronze tablet that says West of the Kastaraya river lies Parha/Perge, and beyond are the Lukka Lands. The usage of and beyond clearly implies that the "Lukka Lands" lie beyond Parha. In fact one of the sources you posted explicitly states Parha on the west side of the Kestros river, which has confidently been identified with Pamphylian Perge, while another states which lay between the lands of Tarhuntašša and Lukka.. One of the Turkish language sources also places it in Pamphylia. The city of Termessos which lies west of Perge is also not Lycian. So "Lycian city" is absolutely not going to cut it. It would be more correct to describe it as "a settlement on the border of Lycia and Pamphylia". Khirurg (talk) 01:56, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Check the sources I added again. Kaštaraya River is the border and the West of the border is Lycia. Parha is located on the west side of the border. Also the Hittite document mentions Parha when listing the Lycian cities so they are used in the same context. Termessos is not relevant here and there is no mention of it being a non-Lycian city during the Bronze Age. If you have any Hittite source that mentions Termessos as a non-Lycian city feel free to add it.
It is not located on the border of Lycia and Pamphylia because there was no Pamphylia during the Bronze Age. The regions of Pamphylia and Rough Cilicia (roughly modern day Antalya, Mersin and Karaman) were known as Tarḫuntašša during the Bronze Age. So it was located in the border region of Lycia and Tarḫuntašša and on the Lycian side (West of the Kaštaraya river).
Perga is a Lycian city and a Pamphylian city. There is no contradiction here as they refer to different periods. It was a Lycian city at first, during the Bronze Age and then a Pamphylian city during the Roman era. It was also a city of the Satrapy of Ionia during the Achaemenid era and located in the Vilayet of Konya during the late Ottoman era. And now it belongs to the modern-day province of Antalya. The name of the provinces and their borders change with every new overlord. Since Lycia is the first known region of the city, it should be added in the lead. Cerulean Breeze (talk) 04:21, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, "a Bronze Age settlement in the lands of the Lukka" then, per the sources. Khirurg (talk) 04:32, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 05:41, 8 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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