Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Louis Armstrong/archive1
Louis Armstrong[edit]
(Contested -- July 8)
I was going to add the picture to Jazz (And still might), but it's so good that it deserves to go on the front page twice. And the article's good too. :) Snowspinner 06:11, Jul 8, 2004 (UTC)
- Object-comparing to other featured biogarphies-this one needs work! Avala 09:16, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC) btw why do you delete my comments?
- Stop making personal attacks (In any language) and I'll stop deleting them. Snowspinner 14:29, Jul 8, 2004 (UTC)
- On what grounds? Ambivalenthysteria 09:51, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Support. Excellent article. Ambivalenthysteria 09:51, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Object. This is an excellent article, and I think it deserves to become featured, but I have a few objections. The most important one is that 1) The image is copyrighted, and the reason for fair use is unclear. The other two are small objections: 2) No books are listed as a reference. There's mention of an autobiography in the quotes section; this should certainly be mentioned, but I'm sure there are many more books that could be mentioned for such a famous person. 3) The legacy section contains three paragraphs starting with "As". This looks a bit ugly, but I'll fix this myself when I have time today. Jeronimo 10:13, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)- I've tracked down the copyright holder of the image and correctly updated the image information and the caption. Since it is from a book of photos, which is our dicey middle ground on copyright, I e-mailed the copyright holder to double check for permission. Book info is being added as I type, and will be in in about five minutes. That should be your objections settled. :) Snowspinner 17:32, Jul 8, 2004 (UTC)
- OK, I looked more - this is definitely fair use. Gottlieb, the copyright holder, has made it available through the LOC digital archive. He holds the copyright still, but this is clearly a non-commercial fair use. I've still e-mailed, and when I get a response I'll post that to the image page, but I'm sure we're fine. Snowspinner 18:09, Jul 8, 2004 (UTC)
- Great, I'll remove that part of my objection in anticipation of that confirmation. Jeronimo 18:13, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- I fixed the other two objections as well. Snowspinner 19:17, Jul 8, 2004 (UTC)
- Support. Jeronimo 20:26, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Great, I'll remove that part of my objection in anticipation of that confirmation. Jeronimo 18:13, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Support, because it is a fine profile of one the 20th century's most famous cultural icons, but with one small question mark: Should the fact that an airport and a tennis court were named after him be included under "Legacy"? If this information is to be included, which personally I could do without, shouldn't it be listed elsewhere? -- Viajero 18:18, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Neutral.
Object.1) Too obviously written by a fan and needs toning down for NPOV, particularly in the "Legacy" section, but also elsewhere: "The influence of Armstrong on the development of jazz is virtually immeasurable...irrepressible personality... virtuoso trumpet player, Armstrong had a unique tone and an extraordinary talent...masterful accompanist and ensemble player in addition to his extraordinary skills as a soloist. With his innovations, he raised the bar musically for all who came after him...Armstrong is considered to have essentially invented jazz singing...great dexterity as an improviser...greatly skilled...represent one of the greatest achievements of humanity." and so on. 2)There's little mention of any criticisms of him in the article (except the "King of The Zulus" paragraph), which is fine if noone has ever had any criticisms, but that seems unlikely for someone so prominent. 3) The article mentions his film career only in passing ("he...appeared in over thirty films."); I realise that he's not really remembered for this work, but thirty films is significant enough to warrant a paragraph: what types of role did he take: acting, or performing? Any notable performances?— Matt 19:56, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)- I don't think your desire for criticism is actionable in its current form. That is to say, I don't know of any criticism of Armstrong, but it's impossible to "prove" this to be the case. If you know of criticism you would like added, I'd be happy to, but barring that, there's not a lot I can do. I can't really add information based only on speculation that it might exist. As for the NPOV... I respectfully disagree. I know of no one who seriously argues against Armstrong's influence, talent, or popularity. Part of the articles strength, I think, is it's lively language. NPOV is not a command for flat prose. Snowspinner 20:14, Jul 8, 2004 (UTC)
- I'm not objecting to a lively style, but I think this article veers, in places, too far towards "gushing" language: streams of praise and superlatives. It's entirely acceptable to go into detail as to why Louis Armstrong is such a giant in Jazz, but I think it has to be done carefully. I'd like to hear other people's thoughts, though.— Matt 23:02, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- As to criticisms, I did some digging on the web, and came up with a few. Most relate to accusations of being an "Uncle Tom", also mentioned in the edit pointed out by Viajero below, so I think some more extended discussion about that would be appropriate. I found things like "[Sammy] Davis [Jr] criticized Armstrong ... saying "You cannot voice an opinion about a situation which is basically discrimination, integration, etc. and then go out and appear before segregated audiences ... which Louis Armstrong had done for many years." Davis went on to criticize Armstrong for singing a song using the word darkies. It must be added that Davis was quoted as saying, quite condescendingly: "Louis Armstrong has always been regarded--let me be as kind as I possibly can; I think Louis Armstrong first of all is a great talent--great, as much as I hate the wordage, a great credit to his race, but he has also been regarded by his race as a man who . . . well . . ."" [1] and "Armstrong was criticized from certain quarters throughout his career for “playing the clown” onstage, i.e., for performing a minstrel act." [2]. — Matt 23:02, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Musically, there seemed to have been some criticism too: " Armstrong's retreat into traditional New Orleans music during the latter part of his career embittered fans and musicians who had once praised his dazzling contributions. He churned out endless versions of "Basin Street Blues," "Do You Know What It Means to Miss New Orleans," and "St. Louis Blues," often employing players who weren't even close to being equals. Armstrong viewed himself as a popular entertainer; he mugged and clowned relentlessly in live performance, to the point that he embarrassed ultra-serious or militant jazz types. Unlike Charles Mingus or Max Roach, who didn't hesitate to speak out against racist injustices, Armstrong seldom made public political comments." [3] — Matt 23:02, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- I've added a few lines here and there to the effect described. Hopefully this satisfies objections? Snowspinner 00:07, Jul 9, 2004 (UTC)
- You've added "For the most part, however, his later output was criticized as being overly simplistic or repetitive.". — Matt 00:17, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Ack! I didn't notice that one of my two edits hadn't submitted. I added a paragrah to "Life" as well. It should actually be there now. Snowspinner 00:20, Jul 9, 2004 (UTC)
- Ah, thought it was a little strange! Thanks, that certainly helps. I'll mull the "style/tone" thing over a bit, and hopefully have other people's comments. (I've also added a query about his film career). I think this is quite a respectable article, by the way, it's just good to beat on it a bit to make it as good as possible! — Matt 00:50, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Movies are fixed. Snowspinner 01:12, Jul 9, 2004 (UTC)
- Ah, thought it was a little strange! Thanks, that certainly helps. I'll mull the "style/tone" thing over a bit, and hopefully have other people's comments. (I've also added a query about his film career). I think this is quite a respectable article, by the way, it's just good to beat on it a bit to make it as good as possible! — Matt 00:50, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Ack! I didn't notice that one of my two edits hadn't submitted. I added a paragrah to "Life" as well. It should actually be there now. Snowspinner 00:20, Jul 9, 2004 (UTC)
- You've added "For the most part, however, his later output was criticized as being overly simplistic or repetitive.". — Matt 00:17, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- I've added a few lines here and there to the effect described. Hopefully this satisfies objections? Snowspinner 00:07, Jul 9, 2004 (UTC)
- FWIW: Up until about ten days ago, there was a section called something like "Was Armstrong an Uncle Tom" which had various criticisms, but it was rmoved by user Stevertigo: [4]. Perhaps, Matt, you would like to review that edit and see if there is anything worth restoring. Otherwise, I agree with Snowspinner. -- Viajero 20:38, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- I don't think your desire for criticism is actionable in its current form. That is to say, I don't know of any criticism of Armstrong, but it's impossible to "prove" this to be the case. If you know of criticism you would like added, I'd be happy to, but barring that, there's not a lot I can do. I can't really add information based only on speculation that it might exist. As for the NPOV... I respectfully disagree. I know of no one who seriously argues against Armstrong's influence, talent, or popularity. Part of the articles strength, I think, is it's lively language. NPOV is not a command for flat prose. Snowspinner 20:14, Jul 8, 2004 (UTC)
- Comment: Had no notice of Featured article candidate status until I added one today. -- Infrogmation 20:49, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Have the problem with this article been resolved? →Raul654 22:15, Jul 19, 2004 (UTC)
- I've struck my objection; I'm still a little worried about the tone, but it seems more balanced than before. — Matt 23:49, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)