Talk:VMRO-DPMNE

Untitled

'The elections were followed by series of violent incidents in the north-western parts of Macedonia by the Albanian minority, which has national majority in those parts of Macedonia, while in the other parts of Macedonia, the elections were followed in peaceful, fair and democratic atmosphere.'

Did we want to get any more biased? Having neither a preference to the Albanians nor the Macedonians, I can look at it from a reasonably neutral viewpoint and assess there is clear and superseding partiality. Perhaps, if this article is acceptable, we should allow ethnic Serbs to write the Kosovo articles and give Chechnyans the controls to our article on Russia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.152.139.128 (talk) 22:02, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Proves??

It is ethnically based, claiming that "the party's goals and objectives express the tradition of the Macedonian people on whose political struggle and concepts it is based."

The source provided from vmro-dpmne page doesnt provide information that the party is ethnically based and there is no third party source.

I propose that this sentence should be removed till there is provided source of that information. --Daci92 (talk) 23:57, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Youth Force Union of the VMRO – DPMNE

The article doesn't seem to have sources to verify its notability. Phill24th (talk) 13:17, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose, large youth organization, with two decades of history. A quick google search gives plenty of leads as to where to start to find references for verification and expansion. --Soman (talk) 15:00, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
• Support: Both articles are very short, so that article can be integrated easily as a section of this article. --RJFF (talk) 13:38, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
• Support, per RJFF. Charles Essie (talk) 03:01, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

 Done

Requested move 1 July 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. EdJohnston (talk) 20:48, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

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Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization – Democratic Party for Macedonian National Unity → VMRO-DPMNE – The political party is predominantly known by its abbreviation, VMRO-DPMNE. Too long of a title to list full name. See official page. Zoupan 23:38, 1 July 2016 (UTC) --Relisting. Anarchyte (work | talk) 13:12, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

• Support. On Highbeam for the past two years, there is one example of the current title compared to 37 examples of the proposed title. The latter group includes several AP articles. Gulangyu (talk) 04:26, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

"leading a policy"

We're told "the party has been leading a pro-European and pro-NATO policy". "Leading a policy" is incorrect English - presumably this should have read "pursuing a pro-European and pro-NATO policy", or something else. Looks as if the article wasn't written by a native speaker of English.178.197.231.247 (talk) 11:30, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Loss of seats in the Parliament

@Jingiby:, I am glad for these updates on infobox: [1] however, I was wondering if can we create a new, Prespa Agreement-related section regarding the party and its MPs, where readers can be informed about the defection of its MPs from the party's ranks? --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 11:37, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

User:SilentResident, I am not sure if that will be encyclopedic content/info. Most probably such details are redundant trivia. Regards. Jingiby (talk) 13:21, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Request to change

Shouldn’t VMRO-DPMNE be far right? After all, it was the party responsible for Skopje 2014 and other actions that provoked Greece, Bulgaria, and Albania. It was also responsible for airing the “Macedonian Prayer” short film on Macedonian state TV, and has ties with the World Macedonian Congress, an organization whose platform is annexing “Aegean Macedonia” (in Greece) and “Pirin Macedonia” (in Bulgaria) and create a greater Macedonian state with a coastline and Thessaloniki as its capital. Blacklister3000 (talk) 05:49, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

Antiquization

The section on the party's ideologies in the infobox lists the so-called "antiquization". This is correct but it is now a party's former ideology considering that the term was coined to refer specifically to the identity policies conducted while the party led the government from 2006 to 2017. Moreover, the term is commonly associated with the former Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski who is no longer party's president. I think it is reasonable to list it as a historical ideology because there is no evidence that the party's new leadership intends to continue these policies once the party returns to power.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 09:44, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Kiril Simeonovski, I have found some sources claiming this policy has continued but they are not reliable in this respect (pro-Bulgarian news site Татковина in Macedonian), so you are right. Jingiby (talk) 10:54, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Deletion of the opinion of Georgievski.

I do not understand why the opinion of Georgievski, who is the party's founder, its chairman for many years and former prime minister and vice president of the country, is being removed. His opinion is supported by a verifiable source and any allegations of propaganda are unfounded. Jingiby (talk) 18:38, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

Because what he says is false and it is propaganda get consensus first before calling someone that brakes the rules That clearly has different opinion then you this article is biased — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.29.224.53 (talk) 04:04, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

"Ivan Mihailov" culture club

@Jingiby, none of the source you've given mention anything about:

1. VMRO-DPMNE asking for the arsonist to be released.
2. Protests regarding the name of the club.
3. The club's name being considered by the party discriminative towards the Macedonians on an ethnic ground. (it is however considered as discriminatory by the Commission for Prevention and Protection from Discrimination).
4. Ivan Mihailov being mentioned as a fascist.

Unless actual, reliable sources are provided which uphold your views, I'm inclined to remove this paragraph.

I'd like to also add that the proposed law mentioned in the article has passed.

And finally - don't assume what you don't know about me. Kluche (talk) 14:30, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi Kluche,

1. the issue about the VMRO-DPMNE asking for the arsonist to be released will be resolved. Now I am going to add this source: Лидерът на ВМРО-ДПМНЕ Християн Мицкоски поиска освобождаването на арестувания за палежа на Културния клуб "Иван Михайлов" в Битоля. БТА, 08.06.2022.
2. the issue about the protests regarding the name of the club was resolved with the second source added by me: Лидерът на ВМРО-ДПМНЕ преброи 173 българи в Северна Македония. Now it mentions the protests regarding the name of the club.
3. The club's name being considered by the party discriminative towards the Macedonians on an ethnic ground is already resolved too with the first source ВМРО-ДПМНЕ предлага закон за "спорни имена на сдружения" след откриването на български клубове, where this position of the party is explained.
4. Ivan Mihailov being mentioned as a fascist. This new source from today will resolve also this issue: Игра на клубове: новите български сдружения разпалиха битката на власт и опозиция в Скопие. Дневник, 18 окт 2022.. Rashela Mizrahi, who is an MP from VMRO-DPMNE, expresses such a position.Аргументът, който депутатът от консерваторите Рашела Мизрахи даде за предложението, бе, че "през последните седем месеца сме свидетели на отварянето на т. нар. културни клубове с названия на спорни личности, нацисти и фашисти". Jingiby (talk) 17:41, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

   Hello @Jingiby,

   First I'd like to preface that WP:NOENG states that English language sources are preffered. I am also considering sources in Macedonian reporting on the same events as more reliable, as after all these events happened in North Macedonia.

   1. I have nothing to object.

   2. It does not mention the protests regarding the 'Ivan Mihailov' club.

   3. It is not directly mentioned that the party sees it as discriminatory. It is stated that the party spokesperson applauded the decision of the Comission, which is valuable context which should be mentioned.

   4. In the text you mentioned, no where is Ivan Mihailov directly mentioned as a fascist. Kluche (talk) 18:19, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

2. It does not mention the protests regarding the 'Ivan Mihailov' club. OK. I have mixed both clubs and will remove this info. The protest was against the second club called "Tsar Boris III".

3. It is not directly mentioned that the party sees it as discriminatory. Partially disagree. The party supports the position of the commission about the discrimination of this name. I will explain this.

4. In the text you mentioned, no where is Ivan Mihailov directly mentioned as a fascist. Disagree. From the context it is clear who is this fascist. Moreover the same position has expressed the deputy chairman of VMRO-DPNE Alexander Nikoloski. According to him, with the opening of the "Vancho Mihailov" club in Bitola, three provocations were committed by Bulgaria: with the name of this collaborator of the Nazis and Gestapo, with the inscription above the entrance, which is only in Bulgarian, and with the choice of the place, which is the former Jewish neighborhood in Bitola. He even demanded that the cabinet must issue a statement condemning the support of such pro-fascist personalities. Jingiby (talk) 18:50, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

@Jingiby

I agree with you on the first 2 points, however for the last one - I suggest replacing the current source with the statement of Nikoloski if you have a reliable and prefferably English language source. Kluche (talk) 19:09, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Here is described and cited the position of Rashela Mizrahi from VMRO-DPMNE in English: Leader of RNM Opposition: Bulgaria treats Macedonia like Russia treats Ukraine, I will Annul the Treaty as follows:

The document was presented by Rashela Mizrahi from VMRO-DPMNE, who noted that there must be an end to the opening of associations and foundations whose programs, goals, activities and actions are aimed at the violent destruction of the country's constitutional order, at incitement to military aggression, as well as inciting national, racial, religious hatred or other intolerance, intolerance, hatred, genocide, extermination, spreading or aiding, inciting and supporting fascism, Nazism, National Socialism and the Third Reich, as well as undertaking activities related to with terrorism or activities contrary to the Constitution.

"In the last seven months, we have witnessed the opening of so-called cultural clubs named after controversial personalities, Nazis and fascists. This law should put an end to the opening of such associations and foundations. With the amendments, it is proposed that the names, surnames, nicknames, pseudonyms, abbreviations and initials of persons who in any way, manner or form in the past have been associated with a racial, religious, national, ethnic and other bigotry, intolerance, hatred, genocide, extremism, spreading or supporting fascism, Nazism, National Socialism and the Third Reich," Mizrahi stressed. Jingiby (talk) 19:21, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

@Jingiby I'm asking for a source of the statement by 'Alexander Nikoloski' which you mentioned above. Kluche (talk) 19:39, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Here you are. Jingiby (talk) 06:15, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

VMRO-DPMNE's stance and idelogy

Biased agenda

Please do not use a single source as a motive to delete a large amount of information supported by many more sources, some with a much higher degree of credibility. Discuss here beforehand to reach consensus. Thanks. Jingiby (talk) 09:17, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Hey IP, provided by you source, in fact adds in its context, the DPMNE-party members to nationalist. Read the text carefully. Regards. Jingiby (talk) 09:37, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

There is no evidence that VMRO-DPMNE is a nationalist party. They identify as a Christan-Democratic party, it is not for you to label them with a pejorative term such as nationalist and pass it off as fact. Please provide examples from a source that explains how they are 'nationalist' instead of using baseless labels. It would be like labelling the Conservatives in the UK or the Republicans in the US as nationalist. The political position of the party is best described as centre-right:

Bideleux, Robert; Jeffries, Ian (2007). The Balkans: A Post-Communist History. Taylor & Francis. p. 419. ISBN 978-0-415-22962-3. Piano, Aili (30 September 2009). Freedom in the World 2009: The Annual Survey of Political Rights & Civil Liberties. Rowman & Littlefield. p. 433. ISBN 978-1-4422-0122-4. Fluri, Philipp H.; Gustenau, Gustav E.; Pantev, Plamen I. (19 September 2005). "Macedonian Reform Perspectives". The Evolution of Civil-Military Relations in South East Europe: Continuing Democratic Reform and Adapting to the Needs of Fighting Terrorism. Springer. p. 170. ISBN 978-3-7908-1572-6. 61.68.77.189 (talk) 10:20, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

How the party presents itself is indicated here. It is also indicated how political analysts accept it. These are completely different assessments. Jingiby (talk) 14:31, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

I have provided three more recent sources that characterise the party as centre right: Bideleux, Robert; Jeffries, Ian (2007); Freedom in the World 2009; Gustav E.; Pantev, Plamen I. (19 September 2005). As such, it is appropriate that the reference to them being nationalist is deleted. 61.68.77.189 (talk) 21:59, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

No one denies that the party is conservative, but no one denies that it is a nationalist (even ultranationalist) and right-wing party too. These three characteristics are fully compatible for one party.

See also:

• (Vnatreshna makedonska revolucionerna organizacia – Demokratska partija za Makedonsko narodno edinstvo, VMRO-DPMNE) This party was founded in summer 1990 as a nationalist and anti-communist party (Rychlík and Kouba 2003: 248–51; Allcock 1994: 284–5). For more: Party Politics in the Western Balkans with Vera Stojarová, Peter Emerson as eds. Routledge, 2013, ISBN 1135235856, p. 175.

See also:

• Several nationalist parties were established during 1990 demanding complete Macedonian sovereignty and statehood...The Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization—Democratic Party for Macedonian National Unity (IMRO-DPMNU)... For more: Janusz Bugajski, Ethnic Politics in Eastern Europe: A Guide to Nationality Policies, Organizations and Parties: A Guide to Nationality Policies, Organizations and Parties, Routledge, 2016, ISBN 1315287439.

See also:

• June 1990 : The Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization - Democratic Party for Macedonian National Unity ( IMRO - DPMNU ) , a more extreme nationalist party , was founded. For more: Imogen Bell, Central and South-Eastern Europe 2003, Psychology Press, 2002q ISBN 1857431367, p. 407. etc.

See also:

• The “ultranationalist” Internal Mace-donian Revolutionary Organization (VMRO) surprisingly invited the “ultranationalist” Democratic Party of Albanians (DPA) to join the government along with its other Macedonian partner. For more: Alexander Motyl, Nations in Transit - 2000-2001: Civil Society, Democracy and Markets in East Central Europe and Newly Independent States, 2020, ISBN 1000678288. Jingiby (talk) 10:16, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

  You have not provided any examples of how the party is considered nationalist in the present day. You have now introduced new sources referring to the time when Yugoslavia existed. In the context of Yugoslavia, it can be argued that the party was considered nationalist because it supported Macedonia's independence as opposed to remaining in the Yugoslav Federation. However, the sentence 'but it is considered nationalist' is not applicable in the present day and hence it should be deleted. The last example you have provided from Moytl has 'ultranationalist' in inverted comma's for VMRO and DPA, which were both in government. This essentially mocks the idea that they were ultranationalist. 61.68.77.189 (talk) 11:33, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Here you are:

• Xhaferi’s election, which paves the way for the formation of a new government, may have brought VMRO DPMNE’s nationalist autocracy in Macedonia to an end. But nationalism will remain behind in Macedonia – not just on the margins, but as part of the political mainstream as well. Past experience makes it difficult to believe that Macedonia will find the internal strength to deal with this. For more: Petrit Sarachini, Autocracy has Fallen in Macedonia – Nationalism Has Not, Skopje, BIRN, May 8, 2017.

• Here you are already in 2022: But after Zaev resigned in November 2021 following an abysmal result in local elections, VRMO-DPMNE suddenly felt emboldened by the rise of domestic nationalism in response to the Bulgarian veto. They attempted to launch snap general elections, expecting it would be enough to propel them back into power...Although VMRO-DPMNE and its leader Hristijan Mickoski claim to be nominally pro-European, their dangerous play with nationalism and incendiary messages threaten to undermine both North Macedonia’s relations with Bulgaria and the country’s EU path. For more: Aleksandar Brezar, Can new governments resolve centuries-old issues plaguing North Macedonia and Bulgaria? Euronews, 10/02/2022. Jingiby (talk) 16:34, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

  Neither of these source call the VMRO-DPMNE of today explicitly (ultra) nationalist, and the second one seems to be the POV of a former Bulgarian minister, certainly not the most NPOV thing. Best regards. Kluche (talk) 17:44, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Check again:

• Thousands of people joined protests in North Macedonia over the weekend against a French proposal that could clear the way for the southern Balkan country's accession to the EU. Protests were led by the nationalist, right-wing opposition party VMRO-DPMNE on Saturday and Sunday. The protesters oppose a French proposal to resolve conflicts with Bulgaria over questions of national identity, language and history which Bulgaria — already an EU member — has been using to veto North Macedonia from starting formal talks to join the bloc. For more: North Macedonia: Protesters reject French EU proposal. Deutsche Welle, July 3, 2022. Jingiby (talk) 17:50, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

  Jingiby, the comment I replied to did not contain this source.

  I've failed to find an author being mentioned in the article, which I'm pretty sure is not in line with WP:RS. Kluche (talk) 18:08, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

And more from 2021:

• Let us count the reasons why the VMRO-DPMNE causes such alarm in the West. First, the party is ultra-nationalist, in stark contrast to the multinationalism required by the EU. The party also propagates antikvizacija (or antiquization), a term used by opponents to describe the party’s identity politics, which traces the modern, largely Slavic republic to the Hellenic ruler, Alexander the Great. Needless to say, there is no significant place for minorities in this version of history. For more: Janelle Clausen and Leon Hartwell, North Macedonia: On the Edge, Center for European Policy Analysis (CEPA) - CEPA, November 19, 2021. Jingiby (talk) 18:06, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

  @Jingiby, this is again, an opinion piece written by an intern and an affiliate. It is also stated at the end of the article that "All opinions are those of the author and do not necessarily represent the position or views of the institutions they represent or the Center for European Policy Analysis." This does not go inline with WP:ECREE. Kluche (talk) 18:13, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

• Hm, how many sources were provided, including academic? Maybe the opinion of Ulf Brunnbauer, Academic Director of the Leibniz Institute for East and Southeast European Studies and Chair of the Department of History for Southeast and East Europe at the University of Regensburg and Peter Haslinger - Director of the Herder Institute for Historical Research on East Central Europe Marburg and Professor of the History of East Central Europe at the Institute of History of the Justus Liebig University Giessen is credible:

The ruling nationalist–conservative VMRO-DPMNE party uses monuments to presumed historical heroes of the Macedonian nation and neo-neoclassical monumental architecture to manifest its particular vision of the Macedonian nation. Their concept of national identity is firmly grounded in the idea of continuity with the ancient Macedonians. Fore more: Ulf Brunnbauer & Peter Haslinger (2017) Political mobilization in East Central Europe, Nationalities Papers, 45:3, 337-344, DOI: 10.1080/00905992.2016.1270922 Jingiby (talk) 18:42, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

@Jingiby, the source you've provided is not from the present day i.e not post-Gruevski. I suggest the statement on whether or not the party is nationalist to be moved somewhere not in the lead, as parties also described as nationalist in the present day (arguably more than VMRO-DPMNE in some cases) like VMRO-BND and FPÖ, don't have that in the lead. Kluche (talk) 18:59, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Nope. There are a post-Gruevski era sources confirming this fact, including some of them above. And more could be provided, of course.

• North Macedonia’s opposition has announced the creation of a parliamentary majority comprising five parties following the informal resignation of Prime Minister Zoran Zaev, Exit.al reports. Opposition leader Hristijan Mickoski’s nationalist, right-wing VMRO DPMNE party, their Albanian coalition partners Alliance for Albanians, and Alternative, alongside the small opposition Levica party, and the ethnic Albanian BESA party, which has just defected from the current government ranks, reached an agreement to form a new majority in North Macedonia’s parliament. For more: Zeljko Trkanjec, EURACTIV, Nov 8, 2021. Jingiby (talk) 19:22, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

• Lawmakers from the Social Democratic Union (SDSM)-led ruling coalition and the nationalist opposition Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization-Democratic Party for Macedonian Unity (VMRO-DPMNE) have proposed bills that would ban provocatively labeled associations, nonprofits, and political parties and target the commemoration of fascist and Nazi allies like Tsar Boris III and Ivan Mihajlov. For more: Pelagija Stojanchova, Macedonia Cracks Down On Clubs That Celebrate Reviled Bulgarians Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, October 24, 2022. Jingiby (talk) 19:30, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

• The truth is that even acceptable points, like mentioning the Bulgarian minority in the North Macedonian constitution, would need a change of constitution, and hence a broad backing from the parliament in Skopje, including the nationalist VMRO-DPMNE group. Even if an intergovernmental conference to open accession negotiations with North Macedonia and Albania was called tomorrow, below are some of the structural problems that remain unaddressed. For more: Simon Ilse, A new day in Europe but not in Bulgaria! Heinrich-Böll-Stiftung European Union, 7 July 2022. Jingiby (talk) 19:39, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

@Jingiby, you have completly ignored the second part of my comment. Kluche (talk) 19:43, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

No, I have not. But you claim there is a lack of reliable sources this party has continued to be nationalist during Mickoski's leadership. This is simply not correct. Provided by me sources from 1990 till now confirm this. Here is the 2022 opinion of Dimitar Bechev an expert of the Macedonian issue and author of the Historical dictionary of North Macedonia. He is a senior fellow with the Atlantic Council’s Europe Center; a research fellow at the Center of Slavic, Eurasian, and East European Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, USA and the director of the European Policy Institute, a think-tank based in Sofia, Bulgaria.

• Whether the above is feasible or not, one thing is for certain: you wouldn’t want to be in the shoes of North Macedonia’s embattled Prime Minister, Dimitar Kovachevski. He is facing a classic “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” situation. Bowing to Bulgaria might put an early end to his brief tenure. The right-wing nationalist VMRO-DPMNE which triumphed at last year’s local elections is breathing down his neck. And it is adamantly opposed to the French proposal. For more: Bulgaria and North Macedonia: No Light at the End of the Tunnel by Dimitar Bechev, European Western Balkans, 27. 06. 2022.Jingiby (talk) 20:04, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

  The opinion of some biased Bulgarian in relation to VMRO-DPMNE is irrelevant. Various Bulgarian politicians exhibit extreme ulta-nationalism towards Macedonia and Macedonians by claiming Macedonia's territory, negating the Macedonian ethnicity and language. This identifies why a label of extreme ultranationalist is appropriate for many Bulgarian politicians. The quotes you have provided by Greeks, Bulgarians or political opponents and their allies have not explained why VMRO-DPMNE is nationalist. It is not appropriate to use a label without justification. Now, remove the inappropriate nationalist reference without further delay. 61.68.77.189 (talk) 08:27, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia based of reliable sources written by experts. If you want to prove a thesis other than the one supported by such sources, you must present more reliable and more numerous other sources that deny the first thesis. But this does not mean that the first thesis does not exist or that it is wrong. Moreover, your personal opinion has no bearing on proving a certain thesis that you consider right or wrong. Please present a dozen of sources that deny the ones I have presented. Not just sources that have a different thesis, but to deny the other one, presented by me. So far, no such source has been presented. I repeat - none. Greetings. Jingiby (talk) 18:08, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Change of pro-EU/NATO Policy to pro-Russian/Serbian

There is no evidence that the Gruevski government changed from 'a pro-European and а pro-NATO policy, to a pro-Russian, pro-Serbian and anti-Western one'. The Gruveski government did not stop seeking to be an EU and NATO member. Nor did it seek to be a member of any organisation with a Russian influence. Nor did the Gruevski governmnet support Serbia politically by reversing the Macedonian decision to recognise Kosovo for example. Nor is there any evidence that the Gruveski government became 'anti-western'. The Gruevski government continued to pursue investment in Macedonia mainly by European and American companies. As a result, this false claimed should be removed. 61.68.77.189 (talk) 10:37, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Hi, the evidences are in the cited sources, not in personal opinions. Check the cited sources. Thanks. Jingiby (talk) 12:14, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

There is some misunderstanding here. The cited above sources examine the period before Gruevski became prime minister (2006-2016). They also not comment on Mickoski's leadership, who surpassed him. The article claims that after taking power, he gradually reoriented the country's and party's politics. Sources from the period after his reign, such as those in the article, unequivocally deny your thesis. Jingiby (talk) 13:32, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

I have asked you provide evidence that the Gruveski governemnt changed from 'a pro-European and а pro-NATO policy, to a pro-Russian, pro-Serbian and anti-Western one' and you have failed to provide such evidence. Instead you have asked me to check the cited sources. Its like a teacher asking to provide your homework and you responding with 'check my sources'. This is not good enough. Unless you can provide a direct quote from the sources explaining how the policy changed from pro-European and pro NATO to pro-Russian, pro-Serbian and anti-Western, this unsubstantiated opinion should be deleted. 61.68.77.189 (talk) 22:36, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

I am amazed at this reaction. Obviously you haven't checked any of the sources presented. There are others though.

See for example:

• A former staunch ally of the US-led War on Terror, Macedonia PM Nikola Gruevski has gradually turned his country away from the West towards Russia - all the while keeping his neoconservative ideology intact... Meanwhile, political analysts have detected a certain rift in the relations between Skopje and the West which has resulted in the Macedonian government’s more decisive reorientation towards Moscow. See for more: Petsinis, Vassilis, “From pro-American to pro-Russian? Nikola Gruevski as a political chameleon”, at openDemocracy.

See also:

• Russia’s efforts appear to be having some effect. For example, the Macedonian government refused to join Western sanctions on Russia over its 2014 military intervention in Ukraine, citing the cost to its economy. In Macedonian politics, Russia’s approach has been nakedly partisan. The Kremlin has been a vociferous public supporter of VMRO-DPMNE, the nationalist former governing party of Nikola Gruevski, who stepped down as prime minister following a political crisis in 2015. For more: Aubrey Belford et al., Leaked Documents Show Russian, Serbian Attempts to Meddle in Macedonia. 04 June 2017, Organized Crime and Corruption Reporting Project.

See also:

• Gruevski was prime minister and leader of the VMRO-DPMNE party from 2006 until January 2016, when he resigned. In May of that year, he was sentenced to two years in prison on charges of corruption, but instead of turning up to serve his sentence, he fled. Gruevski is known for his pro-Serbian, pro-Russian, and anti-EU stance, and he is anti-the 2017 Friendship treaty signed with Bulgaria and the Prespa agreement signed with Greece in 2018. For more: Alice Taylor Skopje asks Hungary to extradite former PM, again in EURACTIV from Sep 13, 2022.

See also:

• During its long stint in power, the party under the leadership of Nikola Gruevski developed increasingly closer ties with Russia. North Macedonia’s entry into the Russian pipeline project South Stream in 2013 ushered a period of growing Russian investments in the country, led by Lukoil and the Russian gambling investor, Sergei Samsonenko. These became some of the main conduits of Russian economic influence in North Macedonia. During the 2016 parliamentary elections, Russia did not hide its support for VMRO-DPMNE as the political actor that could guarantee the success of its projects and investments. The online portal frequently republishes propaganda content from Russian state media glorifying the Russian army, science, technological achievements, and the political success of President Vladimir Putin. For more: CSD. Tackling Kremlin’s Media Capture in Southeast Europe. Sofia: CSD, 2021.

See also:

• Serbian journalist and MP Miroslav Lazanski was involved in a coordinated propaganda campaign along with members of Serbia’s intelligence service, the BIA, aimed at mobilizing public support for Macedonia’s ex-Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski and Russia in Macedonia, intercepted conversations and other leaked intel from Macedonian intelligence show...The evidence collected, the intelligence agency claims, demonstrates that “through information gathered from Živaljević and Stoilković from March 2017, journalist, military analyst and a member of the ruling Serbian party SNS (Serbian progressive party) was brought to Macedonia to collude on propaganda”. The goal, as described, was to promote Russia and Gruevski’s influence, and also to strengthen Macedonia’s opposition to NATO membership. For more: Stevan Dojčinović, Saška Cvetkovska, Biljana Sekulovska, Bojana Jovanović, Bojana Pavlović and Aubrey Belford, Serbia’s Involvement in the Macedonian Crisis 05/06/2017. Jingiby (talk) 07:36, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

See also:

• At the peak of Gruevski's reign, the VMRO-DPMNEled government managed to create a very strong anti-EU sentiment when needed and used the country's failure to align with the EU and NATO as an argument to justify active policies or pass on responsibility for failed ones. For more: Rajchinovska Pandeva, I. (2021). North Macedonia: The Name in Exchange for European Union Membership?. In: Kaeding, M., Pollak, J., Schmidt, P. (eds) Euroscepticism and the Future of Europe. Palgrave Macmillan, Cham. https://doi.org/10.1007/978-3-030-41272-2_26

See also:

• In a 2012 autobiography, This Is Who I Am (Toa sum jas), as well as in the media, former PM Georgievski castigated Gruevski for his policy of confrontation with neighboring Bulgaria and Greece and pro-Serbian bias. Dismissing the Skopje 2014 project as a “Balkan Disneyland.” For more: Historical Dictionary of North Macedonia, Dimitar Bechev, Rowman & Littlefield, 2019, ISBN 1538119625, p. 125, etc. Jingiby (talk) 07:36, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

  I have indeed read the sources provided and they either don't support the notion that there was a change in policy from pro EU & NATO to pro Russian & Serbian and anti western or they are biased.

  1) Pandeva, I.R. (2022). North Macedonia and Russia: An Ambiguous Relationship. In: Kaeding, M., Pollak, J., Schmidt, P. (eds) Russia and the Future of Europe. The Future of Europe. Springer, Cham. https://doi.org/10.1007/978-3-030-95648-6_35

  This article states 'Despite proclaimed and actual good bilateral relations of the two “friendly countries and brotherly nations”, the lack of strategic determination and interest to commit to alliance beyond customary relations has contributed to a certain level of estrangement of both countries from one another. Russian actions were aligned predominantly with its aspirations to exert influence over and dominate the Balkan region in political terms, but then again North Macedonia has never been high on the Russian agenda as other countries in the region'. The position expressed in this article directly contradicts your position.

  2) Tomáš Vlček, Martin Jirušek, Russian Oil Enterprises in Europe: Investments and Regional Influence, Springer, 2019, p. 143, ISBN 3030198391

  No quote is provided from this source supporting your position.

  3) Vassilis Petsinis, From pro-American to pro-Russian? Nikola Gruevski as a political chameleon. 22 May 2015. openDemocracy

  This source is written by a greek prior to the Prespa Agreement and hence can be considered biased. The author himself is not even expressing a strong opinion that the Gruevski government is pro-Russian but merely poses the question 'From pro-American to pro-Russian'?. Furthermore, no explanation is provided how the Gruveski government changed policy from Pro EU and NATO to pro Russian.

  4) Jasmin Mujanovic, Hunger and Fury: The Crisis of Democracy in the Balkans, Oxford University Press, 2018, ISBN 0190877391, pp. 115; 162.

  No quote is provided from this source supporting your position.

  5) Aubrey Belford et al., Leaked Documents Show Russian, Serbian Attempts to Meddle in Macedonia. 04 June 2017, Organized Crime and Corruption Reporting Project.

  You have provided the quote: 'Russia’s efforts appear to be having some effect. For example, the Macedonian government refused to join Western sanctions on Russia over its 2014 military intervention in Ukraine, citing the cost to its economy.'

  Russia's efforts appear to be having some effect. Reference to 'some effect' hardly supports your position that the Gruveski government changed its policy from pro EU and NATO to pro-Russian.

  Overall, you have either not provided quotes from the sources cited or the sources cited do not support your position. Hence, it is appropriate that the false claim that 'During Gruevski's leadership the party changed from a pro-European and а pro-NATO policy, to a pro-Russian, pro-Serbian and anti-Western one' is withdrawn. 61.68.77.189 (talk) 09:18, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia based of reliable sources written by experts. If you want to prove a thesis other than the one supported by such sources, you must present more reliable and more numerous other sources that deny the first thesis. But this does not mean that the first thesis does not exist or that it is wrong. Moreover, your personal opinion has no bearing on proving a certain thesis that you consider right or wrong. Please present a dozen of sources that deny the ones I have presented. Not just sources that have a different thesis, but to deny the other one, presented by me. So far, no such source has been presented. I repeat - none. Greetings. Jingiby (talk) 18:09, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

I concur with editor Jingiby there. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 03:22, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Ultra-nationalist identity and antiquization under Gruevski

The source: Piacentini A., Make Macedonia Great Again! The New Face of Skopje and the Macedonians’ identity dilemma edited by Evinç Doğan in Reinventing Eastern Europe: Imaginaries, Identities and Transformations; Place and space series; Transnational Press London, 2019; ISBN 1910781878, p. 87.

The above source does not have a quote stating that the party promoted 'ultra-nationalist' identity politics. As a result, this sentence should be deleted. 61.68.77.189 (talk) 22:50, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

On a contrary. The text clearly states:

• The project “Skopje 2014” is indeed highly tied to narratives aimed to stress and prove the alleged ancient Macedonian past of today’s Macedonians and their direct descent from Alexander the Great and his great empire. By “adopting the ultranationalist obsession with Ancient Macedonia of Antiquity”, the project realized by the national party VMRO-DPMNE fostered what has been defined the “antiquization” of Macedonia. For more: Piacentini A., Make Macedonia Great Again! The New Face of Skopje and the Macedonians’ identity dilemma edited by Evinç Doğan in Reinventing Eastern Europe: Imaginaries, Identities and Transformations; Place and space series; Transnational Press London, 2019; ISBN 1910781878, p. 87.

See also:

• VMRO-DPMNE was founded in 1990, when the multi-party system was introduced, and had a strong anti-communist and ultra-nationalist agenda, with irredentist references in regards to Greek Macedonia...The so-called “antiquisation” process, the monumentalisation of the city and the authoritarian policies of Gruevski’s rule generated a major political crisis and ultimately lead to government change. For more: Skoulariki, Athena. "Skopje 2014": Antiquisation, urban identity and the rejection of Balkan otherness. In: Aikaterini Markou and Meglena Zlatkova (eds), Post-Urbanities, Cultural Reconsiderations and Tourism in the Balkans, Athens, Herodotos, 2020. (pp.224-259) Publisher: Herodotos.

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• Likewise, the monuments of Skopje 2014, although expensive, are creatively and aesthetically worthless objects, yet they stand for something much more important: they become the empty signifiers of the sought-after identity that can complete Macedonia’s incomplete contemporary identity. In a compensatory move, they reach back to antiquity, a time when Macedonia was praised and revered...But rather than analyze the stylistic and aesthetic aspects of such built objects, more insight might be gained by formulating a psychoanalytical interpretation of the ultranationalist cultural policy of the right-wing neoliberal elites...The ruling coalition that has been in power since 2008 is formed by two major right-wing parties, the VMRO-DPMNE and DUI. For more: Suzana Milevskaq Ágalma: The ‟Objet Petit a,” Alexander the Great, and Other Excesses of Skopje 2014. in e-flux Journal, Issue #57, September 2014

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• The protests ultimately led to the overturn of the right-wing and ultranationalist government that initiated and built the Skopje 2014 project...For example, neoclassical makeovers were heavily criticised for adding 'antiquized' columns to unique examples of late-modernist, brutalist, and metabolist project. For more: Suzana Milevska, Shameful Objects, Apologizing Subjects. The False Memory Syndrome and Ultranationalism, Politics of Representation in Macedonia. in Museums, Transculturality, and the Nation-State: Case Studies from a Global Context with eds. Susanne Leeb, Nina Samuel, Transcript Verlag, 2022, ISBN 3837655148, https://doi.org/10.1515/9783839455142-009

See also:

• Usually in Macedonia, parties with nationalist inclinations tend to tone down their nationalist rhetoric after coming to power, but in 2006 VMRO-DPMNE did exactly the opposite. Adopting the ultranationalists’ obsession with Ancient Macedonia of Antiquity, VMRO-DPMNE used its position as a leading party in the governing coalition to rename buildings, erect monuments and conduct a government marketing campaign to raise national awareness. For more: Saveski, Z. and Sadiku, A.(2012) The Radical Right in Macedonia. Skopje: Friedrich Ebert Stiftung. Jingiby (talk) 06:20, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

The wikipedia sentence states 'Under the leadership of Nikola Gruevski, the party promoted ultra-nationalist identity politics in the form of antiquization.' The source provided is: Piacentini A., Make Macedonia Great Again! The New Face of Skopje and the Macedonians’ identity dilemma edited by Evinç Doğan in Reinventing Eastern Europe: Imaginaries, Identities and Transformations; Place and space series; Transnational Press London, 2019; ISBN 1910781878, p. 87.

However, the direct quote from Piacentini is as follows:

'The project “Skopje 2014” is indeed highly tied to narratives aimed to stress and prove the alleged

ancient Macedonian past of today’s Macedonians and their direct descent from Alexander the Great

and his great empire. By “adopting the ultranationalist obsession with Ancient Macedonia of

Antiquity” - as Saveski and Sadiku52 said – the project realized by the national party VMRO-DPMNE,

thus, fostered what has been defined the “antiquization”53 of Macedonia.'

Piacentini is quoting Saveski and Sadiku when he mentions 'adopting the ultranationalist obsession with Ancient Macedonia of

Antiquity'. This is an irrational statement claiming that having an interest in Ancient history is somehow an ultranationalist obsession. Does Italy have an ultranationalist obsession with Ancient Rome, does Greece have an ultranationalist obsession with Ancient Athens?. Furthermore, the co-author Zdravko Saveski was the leader of the political party 'Levica', a political rival of VMRO-DPMNE and was clearly only trying to score some political points rather than make a cogent argument with a rational explanation. As a result, it is inappropriate to use this source. 61.68.77.189 (talk) 09:41, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia based of reliable sources written by experts. If you want to prove a thesis other than the one supported by such sources, you must present more reliable and more numerous other sources that deny the first thesis. But this does not mean that the first thesis does not exist or that it is wrong. Moreover, your personal opinion has no bearing on proving a certain thesis that you consider right or wrong. Please present a dozen of sources that deny the ones I have presented. Not just sources that have a different thesis, but to deny the other one, presented by me. So far, no such source has been presented. I repeat - none. Greetings. Jingiby (talk) 18:09, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

• On that content there, I agree with User:Jingiby. The party indeed is considered to be nationalistic. Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:35, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

  Why is it considered nationalist? 27.32.194.112 (talk) 09:35, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

 Comment: As a contributor to the articles related to VMRO-DPMNE and its nationalist policies in the region, I find it unfortunate that an IP is now trying to make changes that do not reflect on the WP:RS and WP:NPOV. I recommend that no proposed changes are accepted on the article, unless the IP can present strong sources countering the claims by the RS already provided and cited on the article. From experience in the Macedonia topic area, I know such sources do not exist, and thus, that the IP not only is proposing changes against the aforementioned guidelines, but also shows what seems to be a textbook case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT behavior. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 03:20, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

I'd be interested to know what policies of VMRO-DPMNE do you consider to be nationalist? 27.32.194.112 (talk) 09:31, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

There is an article dedicated to the topic of Macedonian nationalism, if you want to learn more about it. Please refrain from asking for the views of fellow editors on politics because they are irrelevant both to the article's improvement and for Wikipedia as whole. Wikipedia reflects, not on editorial opinions but on academic opinions and reliable sources only. Trying to turn this talk page into a WP:FORUM may result in having your future comments/questions here on this talk page removed or hidden for violating Wikipedia's rules. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 14:41, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

You have made a claim referring to VMRO-DPMNE's and its 'nationalist policies in the region'. I have asked to explain which nationalist policies you are referring to. You have essentially responded by saying that you should not be asked questions; made reference to an irrelevant article on Macedonian nationalism; still haven't explained the so called nationalist policies of VMRO-DPMNE that you mentioned; and threatened to silence me. My advice to you is to not make unsubstantiated claims and inappropriate threats. 27.32.194.112 (talk) 18:26, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

It is clear that you are WP:NOTHERE to improve the project, only to question others who point you to the sources, instead of checking the sources by yourself. The next time you cause disruption to the article, I will ask for admin attention. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 18:42, 13 December 2022 (UTC)