Talk:Sophie Scholl

The Last Days

I'd like to add a clarification here to my recent deletion of a photo of 'Sophie Scholl' being 'strip searched by the Gestapo'. It is in fact a pirated photo taken from the film, Sophie Scholl - The Last Days. It can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baRvF6ZBK18 at around, 30:13. I don't quite know how to delete the entire photo itself from Wikipedia. I've not been editing for a while. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Poppy Higgins (talk • contribs) 13:26, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

The last days

Can info from the movie be assumed to be correct? Including the times of trial & beheading among other facts?

--211.28.198.238 08:04, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Probably not. But, given that the movie is based closely on official documents and transcripts, it may be possible to use the movie information (perhaps even direct quotes) to search for a reference in the official documents and transcripts. I think quite a bit of it is avaialable online - check articles (Google Scholar) and books (Google Books). Kmasters0 (talk) 07:03, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Diaries?

Did Sophie ever keep any diaries or other personal writings that we can use to understand her and her beliefs in more depth?202.138.16.180 11:26, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Inge Jens (ed.), At the Heart of the White Rose: Letters and Diaries of Hans and Sophie Scholl, HarperCollins 1987. --91.34.14.124 16:50, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Hollywood Film

I read that Sophie Scholl is to be played by Christina Ricci in an upcoming film

(See here... [1])

That last paragraph

...looks like it came straight off of Babelfish. I can't even be sure of what it was supposed to be saying. Any ideas? It might something like "Allied planes dropped more leaflets later in the war, but it was too late", but I'm not sure. --TexasDex 19:18, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, it was bizarre, and I couldn't find that it corresponded to anything in the de article to see if I could translate better. If I overlooked it and someone can find it, no biggie, but I couldn't make much sense in the context of the rest of the article. --Easter Monkey 08:47, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

What happened was, later in the war, the pamphlets that die Weisse Rose wrote were sent to the allies, who dropped millions of copies all over Germany. This helped with anti-nazi sentiment. NapalmChipmunk 18:40, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Training as a nurse

In the movie and on several websites, there is mention of her having been trained as a nurse. Can this be confirmed? If so, it should surely be listed as part of her education. This would have impacted (as the movie implies) on her attitudes towards the murder of the mentally disabled children. Kmasters0 (talk) 16:19, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

@Kmasters0, Sophie Scholl trained as a kindergarten teacher, and studied biology and philosophy at the Ludwig Maximilian University. as far as I know, she never trained as a nurse. Her mother was a nurse, and that was where she learned of the killing of disabled children (see Inge Scholl, The White Rose, Page 38.) Weissepedia (talk) 04:20, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Psychology

I was interested in reading the section about Fraulein Scholl's psychology. Does anyone know if a psychologist has detected her Myer-Brigg type? I understand that this can be done with some degree of certainty posthumously. I am just wondering because I suspect she would be an INFP ("idealist" or "monastic/crusader") but that is purely a guess. 202.138.16.82 01:47, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Last words

Is Die letzten Tage a reliable source for her last words, or was that a dramatisation? I thought her last words were documented as (paraphrased) "your heads will also fall". In addition, isn't the profound Christian belief write-up slightly POV? Chris 11:20, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea how to add this to the discussion, but I just want to say one thing: This incredible woman should be canonized as a saint. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.16.234.68 (talk) 07:57, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Denomination

Sophie Scholl was not a Roman Catholic. She was baptised in the Lutheran Church and remained a member of that denomination, although she had become increasingly influenced by the French Renouveau Catholique. 84.174.54.213 16:44, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

An hour before she was beheaded she asked to be received into the Catholic Church but was dissuaded by the Lutheran pastor who argued that such a decision would upset her mother, a Lutheran lay preacher. --Veremundus (talk) 14:34, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

The section on the Origin of the White Rose seems forced into this article to prove a connection between Scholl and Roman Catholocism. Though she had great admiration for von Galen, Scholl was raised and remained a Lutheran until her death. Though the White Rose's debt to Catholic thought cannot be understated, there is a problem with the POV in this section. chazman (talk) 05:07, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

The fact that Scholl was of Christian faith is not by any means the first point to get across in "Origin of the White Rose." That information may be appropriate if it were in the body of a section about the origins of her attitudes about resistance where it is explained how her Christian faith is reflected in her attitudes about resistance. Christianity is a big and diverse school of thought, and to plug Christianity by emphasizing its role for Scholl without the details is awfully deceptive. The way it is seems to suggest that if Scholl were an atheist, she would not have done what she did, and that's false. 71.221.252.98 (talk) 15:38, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Sophie Scholl on Good Friday 1941: „I would very much like to go to church. Not the Protestant one, where I listen critically to what the parson says, but the other on, where I tolerate everything and have only to be open and receptive. But is that the right one?”

November 4, 1941: “I visited the church on Saturday afternoon, ostensibly to play the organ. It was absolutely empty. It’s a colourful little chapel. I tried to pray. I kneeled down and tried to pray, but even as I did so I thought: Better hurry, so you can get up before somebody comes. I wasn’t afraid of strangers seeing me on my knees, but I was afraid of Hildegard might walk in, so I couldn’t disclose my innermost thoughts. That’s probably wrong, probably a false sense of shame. And that’s why I hurried through my prayer and got up the same as I’d kneeled down.”

Easter Sunday 1942: “Yesterday we got up early, at 3.45 A.M., so as to be in time for the Easter service at Soeflingen church, but we got there a bit late all the same and didn’t see them strike sparks from a stone to light the Easter candle. Much as I need that kind of service – because it’s a real service, not a lecture like you get in a Protestant church – I’m sure it takes practice or habit to participate in I fully and not be distracted by the spectacle confronting you. If you have faith, that spectacle becomes a profound religious experience in itself. My trouble is this, however, I’d like to kneel down because it genuinely accords with my feelings, but I’m shy of people seeing, especially people I know.”--217.238.41.234 (talk) 15:13, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Charities?

Are there any charities or trusts set up in Sophie's memory. I was hoping to find information on this page and the White Rose page but they do not say. If there was such an institution, I would like to help in some way, for Sophie's sake.

[2] (German) --91.34.15.92 20:51, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I can not read German but I'll find ways to use that information. Much appreciated. David. 202.138.16.85 05:32, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I am a little bit confused

What is this supposed to mean:

"The subject of her essay was 'The Hand that Moved the Cradle, Moved the World.' She hated children. This was not the case though and in the spring of 1941, she began a six month stint in the auxiliary war service as a nursery teacher in Blumberg. "

It doesn't really make sense to me, can anyone explain?

Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.133.8.161 (talk) 14:38, 21 January 2007 (UTC).

Tortured before death?

William Shirer wrote that the torture she suffered was so severe, that she came before the court with a broken leg. Also, on the new movie website, there is a mugshot from her took from the side, in which it seems that her teeth were broken. Does anyone has information about if she really was tortured, maltreated or abused during interrogation? Thanks. 201.19.179.107 16:00, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

There are no scenes of physical torture in the Jentsch film. According to this site: http://www.jlrweb.com/whiterose/faq.html she was not tortured, though it was a rumour early on. Hope this helps. David. 211.26.1.83 10:32, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

No relevant source in German says that she was tortured. Her leg was definitely not broken. Moreover, the Gestapo officer who interrogated Sophie Scholl, Robert Mohr, was in a wy sympathetic towards her. He wanted her to testify that she had only taken part in resistance activities on behalf of her brother, which she refused, claiming responsibility for having resisted the Nazi regime. 87.169.34.188 10:06, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Do we know much about what happened to Mohr after the war? Did he ever publicly state regrets or renounce his actions? David 202.138.16.91 10:24, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Little was known about Robert Mohr before the historians affiliated to the film team of Sophie Scholl: The Last Days started their research. Mohr did not only interrogate Sophie Scholl, but also her father and other members of the White Rose circle like Willi Graf and his sister Anneliese. Anneliese Knoop-Graf described Mohr's attitude toward her and other female White Rose prisoners as somewhat paternalistic. They perceived his friendliness as false and thought it a trick to gain their confidence. Nonetheless it is interesting to know that Mohr had a son in Sophie's and her friends' age. After his success in destroying the White Rose, Mohr was sent to Alsace as a Gestapo or criminal police officer. He fled to Germany even before the war's end, was imprisoned by the French about 1947 and released about two years later. Then he contacted Robert Scholl, Sophie's father, supposedly because he hoped that Scholl would give him a clean record. In 1951 he wrote a report about the last days of the White Rose on the request of Robert Scholl. In this report he claimed that he had not only tried to save Sophie's life (confirmed by the interrogation protocol), but had also ignored several anti-nazi statements during the interrogation of Robert Scholl, which had otherwise cost Scholl his head. This seems to be true, because Scholl never objected to the report. Mohr died in 1977. When his son Willi was interviewed by the historians, he stated that his father had been a convinced nazi and loyal servant of the regime. Willi Mohr also talked about violent outbursts his father had when family members asked him about the nazis' crimes. --87.169.26.216 20:45, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you; much appreciated. David.211.26.1.119 08:31, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism

Someone put in things such as that Sophie is a "Giant Cunt" and put other things where you should see pamplets or leaflets, so I repaired it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DasEnde (talk • contribs) 14:23, 5 April 2007 (UTC).

Last Words

There seems to be some conflict of what her last words were. This article states they were "The sun still shines", but the White Rose page claims they were either "…your heads will fall as well" or "God, you are my refuge into eternity." I have know idea what they were, just thought that someone who does know could rectify this inconsistency. 71.93.44.175 09:27, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

She said "...your heads will fall as well" during her trial, adressing the court. So these were certainly not her last words, because she spoke to her parents as well as to Hans Scholl and Christoph Probst after the trial. --91.34.72.87 15:19, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Now this article says Scholl's last words were a long quote, but I cannot find the original German for this quote because all the German sites say her last words were only "Die Sonne scheint noch" ! A better source is needed. 71.221.252.98 (talk) 15:18, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

There are two versions presented here of Sophie Scholl's last words. The first, allegedly recorded by officials at her execution, appears to be a précis of the second, longer statement apparently recorded by Scholl's cellmate. This second seems an altogether more convincing scenario than the first. For what it is worth, I suspect a final statement 'from the scaffold' would neither have been invited nor remembered with such fluency.

This contradiction robs the article of authority and undermines the dignity with which Sophie Scholl faced her end. It should be reconciled.JF42 (talk) 22:09, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

Consistency

It says in the article on her brother Hans:

"He, along with his sister, Sophie, Christoph Probst, Alexander Schmorell, Willi Graf, and Professor Kurt Huber, wrote and distributed six leaflets"

Which is correct? This article, or the Hans article?

194.46.227.233 18:06, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Hans Scholl and Alexander Schmorell wrote the first four leaftlets of the White Rose (June / July 1942); they also wrote the fifth leafleft (January 1943), but Professor Kurt Huber did some editing; after Stalingrad Huber wrote the sixth leaftlet (February 1943).--Veremundus (talk) 14:39, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Sabotage is not non-violent

The article says she was part of “White Rose non-violent resistance movement in Nazi Germany.” I’m not so sure about the nonviolent part. Some of their leaflet advocated sabotage. If no one objects I will remove this wording. --S.dedalus (talk) 21:38, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I object. They clearly advocated non-violent resistance. They were not partisan fighters nor did they call for the assassination of Hitler or any other figure. Likewise, groups like Ploughshares today are defined as non-violent though they advocate sabotage of military equipment. 210.50.56.61 (talk) 09:03, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

@S.dedalus While they where prepared to become violent, (ie, Hans carrying a loaded gun during the graffiti campaigns, or Sophie saying to her friend, "If I saw Hitler right now and I had a gun I would shoot him...If a man is unable or unwilling to do so a woman must do it", they never actually became non-violent, so I would consider them a non-violent resistance movement. Weissepedia (talk) 04:24, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

They began as a passive group and then took part in mild sabotage by de-facing Nazi signs, posters and writing graffiti on walls. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.146.244.240 (talk) 11:55, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

George Wittenstein: Last remaining White Rose Activist

I have recently been in contact with George Wittenstein, the last remaining white rose participant who was a friend of Sophie Scholl. Please note the photo being used has copyright with G Wittenstein. Also he pointed out to me that there was no membership. "members" did not exist and the use of this term in the description should not be used. I have edited this out. He told me they were in fact a group of friends who decided to take direct action against the Nazi regime. They told nobody of their actions, particulary friends/family to protect them, hence so many inconsistencies with what has been written.

John Abbey —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.146.244.240 (talk) 10:17, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Das Versprechen 197x

The first film was financed by the Bavarian state government and released in the 1970s, entitled Das Versprechen (The Promise).

Could this be improved? Date? imdb entry? Anything to suggest it really exists, no doubt it does, but no obvious traces are easily found...

87.113.11.190 (talk) 19:17, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

The Movie "Das Versprechen" is a different movie which NOT about the Weiße Rose. Probably you mean the 1971 movie "Der Pedell", which is an old-fashioned designation for the maintenance man in Universities. It is a movie about the maintenance man of the Munich university who observed the Scholl siblings distributing the flyers and who reported them to the GeStaPo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WernerBln (talk • contribs) 15:12, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

This seems to be a mixup of two different movies. The first movie about the White Rose was Der Pedell. I have updated the paragraph. --NiTen (talk) 00:08, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Haecker as translator of Newman

It is true that on 20 May 1942 when Hartnagel was deployed to the eastern front Sophie Scholl gave him two volumes of Newman's sermons as a farewell present. But those particular volumes, edited by the Newman-scholar Matthias Laros, were not translated by Theodor Haecker. But Haecker has translated these works of John Henry Newman into German: An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, An Essay in Aid of a Grammar of Assent, (some) Sermons bearing on Subjects of the Day, (some) Parochial and Plain Sermons, The Dream of Gerontius, Historical Sketches, The Patristical Idea of the Antichrist. --Veremundus (talk) 16:33, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I think everyone who truly admires Sophie Scholl (like Veremundus)is pleased that a book cover by Newborn was removed from this page as this was clearly a plug for a book- by the author!- not information about that brave German heroine Sophie Scholl.

Google Search result on 'Sophie Scholl' error.

A Google.com name search on 'Sophie Scholl' returns this: "Sophia Magdalena Scholl (9 May 1921 – 22 February 1943) was a German American Factory Owner"

This is factually incorrect regarding the last part and needs correcting.

Interceder (talk) 00:29, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

City square not named after Sophia Scholl

In February 2011 the Flemish city of Leuven (Louvain) decided not to rename a local square, Fochplein (Foch Square; a French general), into "Sophia Scholl Square". In spite of popular and political support (Green Party) the City Council renamed the square after the late rector of the local university "Pieter De Somer Square" Source: entry in Councilwoman FATIHA DAHMANI s blog on the 25th of February 2011. http://www.fatihadahmani.blogspot.com/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.5.209.240 (talk) 21:08, 25 June 2011 (UTC) Claim: When the entry was made I was indeed not signed in hence it got published as Unsigned. Signed: --Tarpal (talk) 21:58, 1 January 2015 (UTC)Tarpal

File:LMU, Sophie Scholl, Nicolai Tregor.jpg Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:LMU, Sophie Scholl, Nicolai Tregor.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests February 2012 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:LMU, Sophie Scholl, Nicolai Tregor.jpg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 07:56, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Sophie Scholl in custody of the Gestapo in 1943.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:36, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

I’m sorry

I am sorry for my bad faith edit on this page at 15:18 on the 5th of December, 2018. I now know better and am on my way to become a better wikipedian. Link to my bad faith revision: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sophie_Scholl&oldid=prev&diff=872162291&diffmode=visual — Preceding unsigned comment added by Littlecat456 (talk • contribs) 11:18, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

Integrate at least one actual photo?

IIRC there used to be an actual photo of Sophie in the box? That might have been the one that fell victim to copyright issues a while back [3]. However, there's at least one usable and verified photo on Commons:

File:Sophie Scholl, Aufnahme Hans Scholl (Blumberg 1942).png

Not great quality, but more of a likeness than that bust (which is now used twice on the page). If not in the box, then maybe we could at least use it somewhere else in the text? --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 00:39, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Death of a Nation mention

I find mention of the actress playing Sophie Scholl in "The Death of a Nation," an ahistorical propaganda film from the United States positing that the Democratic Party is parallel to Nazism, to be superfluous, given the relative importance of the film, as well as gravely offensive given Scholl's life's work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:240:102:D40F:88EA:AC1A:FD51:10EF (talk) 18:05, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

There is no requirement that the noted film portrayals have to be eulogies, or even accurate. It's certainly a notable film, even if it is a piece of propagandist crap. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 18:11, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Sophie Scholl in Blumberg 1942.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 10:06, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Cleanup and rewrite

This article is a real mess, with links and content duplicated every other paragraph, with diversions and tangents away from the biographical subject, and the most important and significant material buried where readers can’t find it. Viriditas (talk) 23:29, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Wrong link to Elisabeth Scholl

The link goes to another Elisabeth Scholl, not her sister. Please check. 2.205.219.240 (talk) 11:01, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

I've de-wikilinked that. Please correct that if I've made a mistake. See also this. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 11:10, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Sophie scholl bust.JPG

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 23:37, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Edit and new info

I was planning to add a short addendum to the part about the German League for Girls that makes it clear that it was essentially Hitler Youth for girls since Hitler Youth was only for boys, as I don’t think it’s commonly known. This would just be a small addition to an already existing sentence or 1 extra sentence.

Under early life, I wanted to add that she’d suggested reading the poems of Heinrich Heine and was reprimanded for having the work of a Jew on her bookshelf, which had been explicitly banned by Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels in 1933. The scope of this would just be a couple of sentences.

I also would like to add that her family was friends with several controversial artists who were against National Socialism and provided early inspiration to her. One of these artists was Otl Aicher who helped her refine her early sketches and ended up marrying her sister. This would take 3-5 sentences.

When Sophie was 16, she was arrested by the Gestapo. Her brother, Hans, was found out to be part of an anti-Hitler Youth group called Deutsche Jungenschaft vom 1.11.1929, abbreviated dj.1.11. The Gestapo arrested Hans at his military base and arrested Inge, Werner, and Sophie at their home. Sophie was released after one day, but Hans was detained for three weeks and Inge and Werner for one week. This would take about 4-6 sentences.

My reference for these additions is the book Sophie Scholl and the White Rose by Annette Dumbach and Jud Newborn.

Jud Newborn is a historian, lecturer, and author known for his expertise in the Holocaust and anti-Semitism. He served as the Founding Historian of the Museum of Jewish Heritage, a Living Memorial to the Holocaust in New York City, from 1986 to 2000 and holds a Ph.D. in Anthropology from Stony Brook University.

Annette Dumbach was a writer, journalist, and adjunct professor in the English Department at Hunter College of the City University of New York. She authored several books.

If anyone wants to comment on these changes, please let me know on this Talk Page or on my Talk Page. (LDantesinferno (talk) 02:11, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Jewish Life from Napoleon to Hitler

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 29 January 2023 and 21 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): LDantesinferno (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Alex94543 (talk) 05:59, 18 May 2023 (UTC)