Talk:Limnic eruption

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Mmcca44. Peer reviewers: Catcmckinney.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 02:36, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

First week of the article, comments about changes

Hello revmachine21 and thanks for the latest changes, this science stuff flies way over my head so I'm no good at explaining it to others. I think the article is deeper now. Would be funny to make this "featured article" quality considering the rarity of the phenomenon.

I received a reply from the head of the french scientist team at Lake Nyos. If you read the copyright notice on some of the photos, you'll notice they gave permission to use them. I will ask other members of their team if they are interested in contributing but first I would like to translate this text to french, this way they'll be more likely to contribute to either version. I am billingual (french-english) so I can update both articles once they are done.

Concerning the latest changes (scientific explanations), I think they should be placed carefully as to not overwhelm the readers with technical data in paragraphs that should be more introductive. I feel the intro paragraph has gotten a bit heavy, and some of its more technical terms could be included in a different one. Let me know what you think.Beltz

Very interesting that you've gotten the French scientists involved. If at all possible, they would be better suited to writing the scientific content as they are more qualified. I'm a banker in Tokyo! I'm a native English speaker so I will work on the English edits. Point taken about the intro. I will try to simplify the language. Since this is a new science, I think we should add a section about the discovery of the phenomena, it was actually rather interesting how they discovered this new thing. Revmachine21 00:38, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Simplification complete. Let me know your thoughts. In order to get this article towards a featured status, we will need to provide references. Do you know how to do this? I've done a little research and will start the referencing process. Revmachine21 12:44, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Due to the 2005 Quebec student strike I'm having my final college exams this week instead of about 4 weeks ago, so I'm going to just comment and post ideas here rather than make changes to the article that would require research, for a while. I still have doubts about the introduction and the "causes of limnic eruptions" parts as I feel the "causes" paragraph is simpler and more introductory than the intro itself. Anyway, I'm not sure myself if I really dislike it, but I will propose some changes as soon as I begin working on the article again; soon, I hope! Beltz

List of ideas of what to focus on

I will list things I think might be good to do. Let me know what you think about them, and propose some others as well! Beltz 16:11, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)

Expanding Lake Kivu

It's a very large lake and there probably is enough data on it on the Internet to double or triple that section's size with useful facts. Random data about the lake would be detrimental to the article, but perhaps putting emphasis on the touristic sites and large population around it would be good. We can also probably give a more detailed explanation of how risky the situation was, due to earthquakes, volcanic activity, etc.

I did a lot of research to find future references for the article I was planning. I've put all the information I could find in the External references section. I think the problem is that this is a very infrequent phenomena, only affecting 2 to 3 known lakes, plus only in Africa. There is information but not as much as you would expect if the same thing were happening in the US or Europe. Revmachine21 07:08, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Would it be good to write things that could interest this encyclopedia's reading audience? For example, if there are thousands of westerners right around the lake, it could add a few lines worth mentionning into the text. Or would this be detrimental to the article to speak about a minority "of interest" in a place where 2 million lives are in danger? (however small the danger is...) Let me know your thoughts. Beltz

I added information about the possible limnic eruption occurring at Lake Kivu. My exact addition was,""Two main changes in Lake Kivu's physical state that have brought attention to the possible limnic eruption are the high rates of methane dissociation and the rising surface temperature.[11] Thorough research of historical and present temperature monitoring show that Lake Kivu's surface temperature is increasing by approximately 0.12 °C per decade.[11]" Mmcca44 (talk) 18:46, 15 September 2016 (UTC)Mmcca44

A possible solution: Degassing lakes

There is a ton of info on the french team's website, as well as other sites, on the techniques they use to degas the lake as well as their results. This is the section that lacks the most needed data in my opinion.

This would fit nicely under the 'Limnic eruption prevention' section. See sample outline below. Revmachine21 07:09, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• What effect does degassing these types of lakes have on greenhouse gases and global warming?--Biturica (talk) 18:44, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

The effect should be zero, as the article pretty much states that normally, the degassing happens naturally in minute volumes the few (two?) lakes that seem not to be able to naturally degas themselves simply need assistance. My question is, if the water spout only needs to be primed, and is forceful enough to shoot as high as the picture leads one to believe that is it, can the water volume / force sufficient to power a generator? If so, could these remote locations benefit from this as a natural source of power? Hydroelectric w/o a dam... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.128.84.219 (talk) 20:10, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Facts to verify

Facts to verify: "Sample sediments from the lake were taken by Professor Robert Hecky from the University of Michigan which showed that an event caused living creatures in the lake to go extinct approximately every thousand years and caused vegetation nearby to be swept back into the lake."

Bob Hecky is a professor at the University of Waterloo. Perhaps, this work was done by George Kling from the University of Michigan.

This was taken from another wikipedia article. I've heard of his research but I don't know if he concluded that the extinctions happened every thousand years, or if it was an exageration from a wikipedian. It would be good to figure the accurate frequency of the disaster.

I saw/heard confirmation on this fact (but I think the frequency was 5,000 years) on a BBC TV special, haven't been able to find an internet reference to back up this fact. The BBC special said that geologic record showed periodic lake extinctions and the presence of land vegegation which they implied was caused by lake tsunami pulling plantlife into the lake.Revmachine21 00:50, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Whoops, I just double checked my entries in the Lake Kivu page that I made right after I saw the BBC show, and the period was 1,000 years.

Okay, good then. I based my figure on your article as well.

Improving intro & causes of limnic eruptions

I feel those two have parts that should be swapped with each other... I'll work on this now and see what happens.

Why don't we follow the tsunami article outline structure? Here's a sample:

Introduction
1 Causes
2 Characteristics
3 Warnings and prevention
4 Past limnic eruptions (this might a good place to include the information from the section I added below)
4.1 Lake Monoun
4.2 Lake Nyos
5 Lakes at risk for limnic eruptions
5.1 Lake Monoun
5.2 Lake Nyos
5.3 Lake Kivu
5.4 Some Equadorian lake I found... can't remember the name but was included in one of the links I provided...
6 Limnic eruption prevention
7 See also
8 References
9 External links
Revmachine21 07:01, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I like that outline. I have some reservations about the "warnings and prevention" part. I'm not sure it would work well here because unlike a tsunami, earthquake or tornado, there are no warning signs that would not be explained in "Causes" where we explain how they are caused. I suggest we get rid of #3, and rename #6 to something with the words "degassing", as it catches interest and will pertain more to this section's content than just using "Prevention". But sign me up, the layout you proposed sounds very good. Beltz 13:49, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

I did some research on possible causes of limnic eruptions and found a good addition to the article. My exact addition was, "Another possible cause of a limnic eruption is the the gradual development of saturation at certain depths which can trigger the spontaneous development of gas.[4]" Mmcca44 (talk) 18:43, 15 September 2016 (UTC)Mmcca44

Adding reference section, improving "See also" section

Dunno how to do the references, im throwing this here because it probably will need to be done.

You can embed references into the body rather than in the 'External links' section like this [1]. Wiki will automatically number them for you. Edit this section to see how this was accomplished. Revmachine21 06:51, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

(ok thanks-Beltz)

Translating to french

I'm writing this here because I plan to do it, perhaps next weekend. Beltz 16:11, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)

Identification of a new phenomena

According to the BBC special I saw, scientists first thought the deaths at both Manoun and Nyos were caused by volcanic outgassing. The appearance of the dead bodies led them to think of sulfur gas. However after evaluating the lakes' temperatures and not finding any evidence of volcanic eruption, they realized that the volcanic hypothesis was not likely. Only after discounting volcanic theories, did they start to begin the identification process for limnic eruptions.

The article should also explain how scientists identified a new type of event separate from a volcanic event. Revmachine21 06:51, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This would be a great logical first section in the article, after the introduction. This would fit very well before "Causes" (based on your proposed outline from tsunamis).Beltz

References

reverted changes

hello, I would like to explain the few reverts I did today.

1- Removed link from "suffocation" article, in the first paragraph. I did this one because this link sent to an article on asphixia, which would be more apropriately placed later in the article, where we actually mention "death by asphixia".

2- Removed a link near the end to the "asphixia" article. It was the third link sending to the asphixia article. So as of now, there is still a single link to the asphixia article, in the "Occurences" paragraph. I think it's the most apropriate place to link (rather than linking from suffocates earlier) since the word asphixia is used in its usual context.

3- Removed a link to the "water" article. I dont think a link pertains to our article, as it isnt about reactions to water, or anything chemistry related. It is ecology related, but I dont think linking to "water" is necessary. If you disagree, please revert it back if you want, I dont mind it much, I just felt it was a bit out of place.

4- I think the "soda can" link should be removed. It links to "aluminium can", an article about how the cans are manufactured. The "beverage can" article might be more apropriate but I dont know if it's about carbonated drinks. If there was a "carbonated beverage" article, perhaps a link would work better.

bleh, that's all I had time to do today. I'll finish the french translation later this week. Beltz

Call for Clarification on State of Lake Nyos Victims

The Lake Nyos article claims the victims exhibited not merely skin discoloration, but actual burns. Is this true? If so, could it be because of the temperature of the CO2.. Or does it rather lend credence to the acid theory? Anyway it should be explained, or the claim of burns removed from the Lake Nyos article. Zargulon 14:20, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Here is a reference [2] Revmachine21 12:33, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I found no mention of "pressure ulcers" in that article. In fact, I've seen it most often claimed that the wounds were, in fact, frostbite from the carbon dioxide. You can find that information here, among other places. Ninja housewife (talk) 22:36, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

When travelling to Cameroon this topic came up in converation with graduates I was with and one person mentioned there was a conspiracy theory around the testing of chemical weapons (allowed) on behalf of other countries. His point of view was

• two incidents
• in two areas
• within a short period of time
• an extremely uncommon occurance... worldwide and in living memory
• a 3rd World nation with limited forensic capabilities
• an area within the country of little political or economic significance
• and then nothing again for close on 25 years

Simply too many coincidences - as a neutral party with no biase I had to agree. --Andbrew.downes (talk) 05:40, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

"Recently determined"

Could someone make this more specific? Recent as of when? When was it determined that volcanic eruptions were separate events? QmunkE 03:30, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

'Scientists recently determined, from investigations into the mass casualties in the 1980s at Lake Monoun and Lake Nyos, that limnic eruptions and volcanic eruptions, although indirectly related, are actually separate types of disaster events.'

Recently means 1980's, it says so in the sentence. Revmachine21 12:10, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

No, that's not what the sentence says as it is written - that sentence only states that the mass casualties occurred in the 1980s, it doesn't specifically pinpoint the discoveries with regard to limnic eruptions being separate events. Also, is the 1980s recent? If nobody can clean this up I will rewrite the sentence to conform with a more encyclopedic tone/style. QmunkE 17:41, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

New evidence for historical occurences section

The Biblical plagues of Egypt is the first recorded occurence of limnic eruption (blood water, frogs, boils, CO2 death). Evidence was presented in a recent documentary on the History channel called "Exodus Decoded" by Simcha Jacobovici. It should be noted in the historical section in some way. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_Decoded. rjp2006 Aug 21, 2006

I'm not sure that the linked article has strong enough evidence to support a claim of limnic eruption in Exodus. Furthermore, volcanic activity has indirect causal relationship, volcanic activity is not the direct cause of a limnic eruption. Limnically active lakes are noted for lack of direct lakebed volcanic activity. A different trigger like landslide, excessive rainfall is noted as more likely triggers.Revmachine21 11:49, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

A possible solution: Degassing lakes

Cleaned up and added some information on the degassing experiments and proposals. If anyone knows what happened to the project reported in New Scientist in Jan 2003, please add to this. 165.222.186.195 11:42, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't have access to New Scientist (maybe you do) but I found the following. Refernece [3] Revmachine21 12:42, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Why not use the syphon to generate electricity and sell that to defray the cost?

"Why not use the syphon to generate electricity and sell that to defray the cost?" Research would be needed but I remeber something of an energy contract from the Rwandan government for the extraction of methane (something like 55 billion cubic meters I think). If the projects were decreasing the kinetic energy of the water through syphoning the amount of water and CO2 being pulled from the bottom would decrease. However slight this would be, as noted on the project site at the University of Michigan's site the CO2 is not currently being pulled out fast enough as is. You do have a point though in that myabe if the costs were deferred then more projects could be put in place.

Merger proposal - merge Limnological catastrophe with Limnic eruption

We have two articles, Limnological catastrophe with Limnic eruption, on the same topic. This resulted from the translation of the Russian article to English with a less than comprehensive reserch on the existing literature. Recommend merging. Comments? Williamborg (Bill) 19:21, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I suggest we merge. They basically cover the same material, and any good points stated in Limnological catastrophe can help improve the current status of Limnic eruption. --Nishkid64 01:37, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, Limnic eruption is the better article, unforutnately the Limnic eruption article reads like jibberish. I realize that some points in the later article are better science, but it is impossible to read. Revmachine21 13:55, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

organic matter

Can organic matter alone cause an eruption? --Gbleem 03:24, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Broken Link

I think an "up to date" version of the broken link about the equadorian lake mentioned above would be [4]. It's a little bit down the page. 65.93.25.29 00:15, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Disaster or Hazard?

Generally, phenomena such as limnic eruptions are initially natural hazards, especially if there are no recorded loss of life afterwards; In addition, I can see plant life benefit from limnic eruptions (see photosynthesis)--IViking (talk) 15:32, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Tadlac Lake in Los Baños, Laguna, Philippines

I got to this article by running a Google search for the term "lake overturn", which I encountered at http://rcse.edu.shiga-u.ac.jp/gov-pro/plan/2008list/06-020605.pdf -- an article which says Tadlac Lake in Los Baños, Laguna in the Philippines undergoes an annual lake overturn. The phenomenon they describe, however, apparently impacts only the fish population. I'd like to request a clarification, please. At what point does a lake's sudden release of Carbon Dioxide gas qualify as a 'lake overturn'? If the Tadlac lake events qualify, then the statement 'To date, this phenomenon has been observed only twice' would no longer be true, and I these events should be mentioned in this article as well. On the other hand, this could simply be a misappropriation of the term, so I'd like to seek a clarification before I do any editing. - Alternativity (talk) 13:23, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

The explosion of carbon dioxide (CO2) below the bottom of lakes. Periodic temperature changes on the surface of the reservoir can be cause "water's overturn" in ponds, lakes and reservoirs, as well as in relatively deep bays of rivers, which have little or no have flow and are not exposed to the winds. During the "water's overturn", takes place a complete mixing of the deeper and more superficial layers of water, which radically changes the living conditions of aquatic creatures. Not always, but usually the bottom layers of water have many hydrogen sulfide, CO2 and other toxic gases to fish , resulting from the decomposition of organic bottom sediments. With stirring, hydrogen sulfide, CO2 and other toxic gases from the bottom water layers distributes throughout the volume of water and can kill fish and other aquatic creatures. Such an "water's overturn" likely takes place in Tadlac Lake. A clarification of your question (that «... this phenomenon has been observed only twice ... at Lake Monoun ... and at Lake Nyos ...») is such - in these lakes "water's overturn" was not caused by temperature changes in the waters of lakes, but in these lakes "water's overturn" was caused by the explosion of CO2 below the bottom of lakes. Catastrophes on lake "MONOUN" in 1984 and on lake "NYOS" in 1986 were caused by the instantaneous ejections of the gaseous carbon dioxide from the hard sediment stratums under the lake's bottom, which located at some tens of meters below the lake's bottom. Catastrophes on lake "MONOUN" in 1984 and on lake "NYOS" in 1986 is a rare type of natural disaster, which caused by the explosion of carbon dioxide (CO2) below the bottom of lakes: http://nyos.lv/en/nyos/mehanika-vkljuchenija-spuskovogo-mehanizma-31859 http://nyos.lv/en/nyos/osobennostj-atmosfernyh-osadkov----v-okrestnostjah-ozjor-nyos-i-monoun-32225 http://nyos.lv/en/nyos/nios-limnologicheskaja-katastrofa-32235 188.112.170.48 (talk) 17:03, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Okay. So I guess my question is, are the Tadlac events indeed "lake overturns", and should they thus be represented in this article? If they are not, then should they be called something else (something other than "lake overturns")? Or if they are "lake overturns", but not "limnic explosions", should we thus create a separate page for the more general term "lake overturn"? I'm a bit confused. - Alternativity (talk) 11:08, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

You do not mess up. The confusion takes place at the article. The article puts an equal sign between term «limnic eruption» and between term «lake overturn». Sense of term «limnic eruption» (which greater than term «lake overturn») in the article is reduced in favor of term «lake overturn». At Lake Monoun and at Lake Nyos was an explosion of carbon dioxide (CO2) below the bottom of lakes. An explosion of carbon dioxide (CO2) below the bottom of lakes creates the numerous subsequent phenomena, including the mixing ("overturn") of water in lakes. Changing the wording of this article or the creation of two other articles ("lake overturns", "limnic explosions") can eliminate the confusion in this article.

I wish success in editing of this tangled article. 188.112.170.48 (talk) 14:40, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi, based on a quick read of the RCSE website, what is described there does qualify as a limnic eruption, albeit, a minor one. Based on the large monetary loss in the lake's fishing industry, this also qualifies as a natural disaster even though people did not die. I definitely support adding the lake to the Limnic Eruption article. I think there are some nuances to this lake's eruption mechanism that deviate from Nyos and Monoun (is there volcanic activity nearby? seems no? What is the trigger? Seems like change in ambient temperature? this isn't the case in the African lakes) Revmachine21 (talk) 05:34, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Subject of the article: Limnic Eruption-a rare type of natural disaster in which carbon dioxide (CO2) suddenly erupts from deep lake water, suffocating wildlife, livestock and humans.According http://rcse.edu.shiga-u.ac.jp/gov-pro/plan/2008list/06-020605.pdf, in Tadlac Lake, during the overturn, at surface-water arises "...deficit in the supply of dissolved oxygen (DO ) ... " (" ... fish kill period where the DO was less than 3 mg / L.. "). This phenomenon is not a disaster in which carbon dioxide (CO2) suddenly erupts from deep lake water, suffocating wildlife, livestock and humans.Therefore Tadlac Lake is not the subject of this article "Limnic Eruption".

188.112.170.48 (talk) 22:10, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

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More recent academic article published

At some point, a Wikipedian ought update this page with more recent academic information. Found a great resource. Bookmarking here for later work.

http://www.globalchange.umich.edu/globalchange1/current/lectures/kling/killer_lakes/killer_lakes.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.56.155.94 (talk) 05:41, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Lake nyos.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:38, 3 October 2021 (UTC)