Talk:Gender identity

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Use of "assigned" throughout[edit]

The consensus is against the proposal.

Cunard (talk) 01:09, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The use of the phrase "assigned at birth" and "assigned sex" is redundant and implies that there can be a different sex from the one a person is born with. Bypassing any opinions on "gender" as it is used in this article, it is biologically impossible to change one's sex. There is a WP article on this distinction (again, I am writing this in terms of the current WP world and do not intend to make a political/moral statement about this topic).

I move and RfC that the statements containing these phrases should be reworded to reflect definition and the intended wikivoice here. An example:

"Different amounts of these male or female sex hormones within a person can result in behavior and external genitalia that do not match up with the norm of their sex assigned at birth."
To: "Different amounts of these male or female sex hormones within a person can result in behavior and external genitalia that do not match up with the normal attributes of their sex."

Again, even the WP article on assigned sex is about the determination of a person's sex, and this sex cannot change. Gender is a separate beast here. I do think that perhaps for wikilinking purposes, it can be included once in the article, but it makes no sense to me to have it repeated in this fashion over and over, especially given that it could confuse the uninitiated reader about the accepted distinction between gender and sex.

- Dmezh (talk) 01:13, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Except that even anatomical sex can be altered through hormones and surgery. Newimpartial (talk) 03:27, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The determination of sex at birth, as described in the article on Sex assignment, makes no argument about the ability to change sex, and is relevant to the article throughout. Replacing the term with simply "sex" reduces accuracy. For example, the article discusses the gender identities of individuals assigned female at birth, with XY chromosomes, and lacking typical male anatomy. That is to say, their assigned sex, their chromosomal sex, and their anatomical sex are not all the same, and the sex as assigned at birth was relevant to the study. Removing mentions to it would be, frankly, egregiously non-neutral. --Equivamp - talk 01:37, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. WP articles need to reflect the reliable sources on their respective subject matter. In this case, the term used is "assigned sex" - there are reasons for this that so agree, including sex determination in intersex cases (roughly 1% of births) and "errors" - but even if I didn't agree with the usage, it would still be correct because it is used by essentially all recent, reliable sources on gender identity, or is also worth noting that the article on sex and gender outlines the terms of a debate; it does not outline pat definitions to be employed mechanically elsewhere. Newimpartial (talk) 01:48, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. I think the correct solution here would be to replace "sex assigned at birth" with "gender assigned at birth". Changing it to just "sex" would probably be confusing, since people can change their sex (at least anatomically), thus a person's current sex may not be the same as their sex at birth (depending on which definition of "sex" you use). Kaldari (talk) 03:10, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
But it isn't WP's job to replace the terminology used in Reliable Sources with something editors feel might be better. Newimpartial (talk) 03:27, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"...a person's current sex may not be the same as their sex at birth": which is one reason that the clarificatory "sex assigned at birth" is used... -sche (talk) 16:11, 16 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Follow-up[edit]

WP:NOTAFORUM. WP:CITE or WP:DROPSTICK. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 02:07, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The opinions above seem to overlook a key aspect: the phrase "sex assigned at birth" sounds bureaucratic (which it is) and incidental (which it is most likely not). The identity dissonance is between one's gender and their actual genitalia, in contrast to one's gender vs. the ink stains (i.e. male/female) on their birth certificate. For this reason I think it should be "sex assigned at birth". 166.48.82.76 (talk) 04:02, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

But the reliable sources on the topic don't agree with you. Hmmm. What should we do? Newimpartial (talk) 11:56, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
With all due respect, you have proven to be nothing but biased in your redaction of this topic. It is amusing to me that it is allowed for activists (LGBT) to edit and dictate what is written or not on this page. The criticism wikipedia has received regarding this matter has not been unfounded and is clearly visible here. The fact that there is no
criticisms page regarding this issue when public debate is at an all time high and there is clear division regarding this matter (both by the general public and professionals in the medical field) is both amusing and sad. I have read the talk page regarding this topic and the way editors are handling this issue gives clear indication of the leftist bias that has been reported throughput the media. I know this will be erased as will other matters regarding criticism of how this has been handled. For such reason I will be leaving Wikipedia behind and moving
to Britannica which multiple studies have found is a more objective and neutral source of information. I hope all the people here the best and may all of you learn that having a chokehold on how information is portrayed won’t change actual-factual truth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.15.147.136 (talk) 01:13, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Just published paper in Mind[edit]

Earlier today, a paper by Florence Ashley titled What Is It like to Have a Gender Identity? was published in Mind. I'm about halfway through reading it, it's quite philosophical befitting of the journal, and seems like it would be of relevance to this article. On the surface it seems like it would fit in the present views section, but we don't actually have a subsection there for philosophical views. There's almost certainly scope for adding such a section though, as there are other contemporary philosophical views that Ashley cites. It seems a bit odd that on philosophy we don't cite anything more recent than Butler's 1990 Gender Trouble.

While the copy on Mind is paywalled, Ashley has also uploaded a copy to her website. We should only cite the Mind copy in the article, but providing the link here for the benefit of editors who want to assess the content. Sideswipe9th (talk) 19:22, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

One quote I really like here, from page 12 is Gender identity is dynamic rather than static. Gender identity may demonstrate substantial consistency and stability across one’s lifetime, but this should be understood as a dynamic equilibrium rather than a crystallization. Gender identity is continuously made, remade, interpreted, and reinterpreted as one’s gender subjectivity changes shape. New gendered experiences or changes in the factors influencing phenomenological synthesis may lead to noticeable or subtle shifts in gender identity alike. It's way too long to incorporate into the article as a direct quotation, but it is something that we could easily paraphrase.
We'd also need to incorporate a sentence or two on what Ashley means by gender subjectivity, which is also discussed throughout the paper. A simplified summary quote of this starts at the end of page 7 The totality of our gendered experiences is gender subjectivity and forms the basic substrate of gender identity. It is the material from which gender identity is shaped. Drawing on the vocabulary of existential phenomenology, gendered experiences are part of facticity. They are a given, a matter of fact. But they are not who we are. Rather, it is the stance we take towards our facticity, how we interpret it, that defines who we are as gendered beings, as individuals with a gender identity. Again, it's too lengthy to incorporate, but seems something we could paraphrase. Sideswipe9th (talk) 19:36, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oh and for the first bit I've quoted on how Ashley sees gender identity as dynamic, we should contrast that, as Ashley does, with the paragraph at the end of page 12 Conceiving gender identity as dynamic does not entail that conversion practices—external attempts to change or discourage trans people’s gender identity—are effective. The constitution of gender identity through gender subjectivity is a complex phenomenological process that is noticeably resistant to deliberate influence, as shown by research on the consequences of conversion practices. As otherwise it could be read that conversion therapy is effective, or at least possible. Sideswipe9th (talk) 19:44, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Use of "assigned" throughout[edit]

This remains a problem as sex is determined by the presence or absence of a 'Y' chromosome, and nobody can change their DNA. Nothing is assigned. Only identified. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.113.21.168 (talk) 16:21, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the time sex is assigned at birth on external genitals and in the case of intersex people this can lead to mistake. That is why is assigned not determined as right a birth they decide feature of the body that in very rare cases can be misleading. Harriet45 (talk) 22:41, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think our anonymous friend is just having a bit of fun wasting our time here, if their other reverted edits are anything to go by. Anyway, this claim that it is based on chromosomes is very obviously just silly. Nobody is routinely genetically testing babies before issuing them birth certificates. Some people only find out that their sex chromosomes are not what they expected when they either have fertility problems or do a 23 And Me to find out if they really are 1/16 Italian, like their grandma said, and find out something else entirely. The article already uses the correct standard terminology and changing it would only be a confusing obfuscation. The suggestion is no better now than when it was rejected back in 2018. (See above.) --DanielRigal (talk) 01:00, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No thats still determined noy assigned. It just ha a a tiny margin of error.
Futhermore is there any evidence that being intersex has anny correlation with having a transgender identity ?
Because this is a textbook bait and switch. 120.22.66.149 (talk) 21:31, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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