Talk:Kirkcudbrightshire

Untitled

Just a quibble, but I was brought up to believe that if it wasn't over 3,000 ft (and on mr. munro's table) it was a hill, with only a couple of exceptions like the cobbler and goat fell..dave souza 17:11, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

{{geodata-check}} The coordinates need the following fixes: Link error for integer longitude/latitude.

The website www.streetmap.co.uk will not display a map when integer values are used for longitude and latitude.

For example, the article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirkcudbrightshire has this coordinate link (near the top-right corner): http://stable.toolserver.org/geohack/geohack.php?pagename=Kirkcudbrightshire&params=55_00_N_4_00_W_region:GB_type:adm2nd_source:GNS-enwiki

The stable.toolserver.org page for 55_00_N_4_00_W has this invalid link to www.streetmap.co.uk: http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newsearch.srf?mapp=newmap&searchp=newsearch&name=55,-4&Submit1=search&type=LatLong

It can be corrected by using adding ".0" to the longitude and latitude: http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newsearch.srf?mapp=newmap&searchp=newsearch&name=55.0,-4.0&Submit1=search&type=LatLong

The code that generates links to www.streetmap.co.uk needs to be fixed.

Quantile (talk) 18:22, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

The link to www.streetmap.co.uk is working by now. BrainMarble (talk) 03:28, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

What about Cuthbert ("Cudbright")?

Why is there no mention of Cuthbert of Lindisfarne, when "Kirkcudbright" appears transparently to refer to Kirk-Cudbright, or the Church of Cuthbert? Bob99 (talk) 22:49, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Possibly because, despite the dedication of the church at Kircudbright to St Cuthbert and his importance to Northumbrian Christians, he does not figure in the history of the Stewartry, any more than St Oswald or many of the Irish saints whose names feature in local church dedications. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JF42 (talk • contribs) 14:37, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

I see in the article on the town of Kirkcudbright in Kirkcudbrightshire that St. Cuthbert's remains were kept for seven years in a chapel in the town that was subsequently called Cille Chuithbeirt (anglice, Kirkcudbright). This was during an intermediate period between his remains being disinterred at Lindisfarne and reinterred in County Durham, England. There's probably a story there that wants to be told. -- Bob (Bob99 (talk) 19:13, 19 December 2011 (UTC))

The reference to Cuthbert's relics in the Kirkcudbright article is spurious and is awaiting citation. Neither of the two mid-12th century sources for the seven years exile of the Lindisfarne monks in the 9th century, neither Symeon or Reginald, mentions a sojourn in Kirkcudbright. Symeon says that their wanderings took them to Whithorn, along the coast, where there had been a Northumbrian bishop up until at least 833. Reginald merely mentions their passing through 'the land of the Picts' (i.e modern Galloway). Reginald, however, does provide the first recorded mention of Kirkcudbright- villula Cuthbrictis khirche- in his description of the miraculous punishment of clerics engaged in sacrilegous bull-baiting on St Cuthbert's feast day at Kirkcudbright in 1164.

The Gaelic spelling of Kirkcudbright is modern and there is no evidence that there ever was a historic form of the name in Gaelic. The Gaelic word order in the name 'Kirkcudbright' suggests that the name was adapted directly from the Old English version of 'Cuthbert's Church/Kirk,' possibly by Gaelic-speaking Norse-Irish settlers in the 10th century. There are no grounds for positing an original Gaelic form deriving from the arrival of Cuthbert's relics in a Gaelic-speaking community at the mouth of the River Dee, circa 875-883. Given the popularity of the cult of St Cuthbert in Northumbria, there may well have been a church dedicated to St Cuthbert in the vicinity much earlier, at the height of the Northumbrian ascendancy, when Cumbric British and Anglian English would have been the principal two languages spoken in the region.JF42 (talk) 22:01, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Looking in again, it is difficult to accept that St. Cuthbert is not of significance to the history of a place that takes its name from a church dedicated to him, at which there is a tradition that his remains abode there for seven years while they were in transit from Lindisfarne (where they were originally interred) to Durham Cathedral (where they were ultimately reinterred). This seven-year stopover is not too surprising in view of the fact that Cuthbert's remains spent 112 years in Chester-le-Street (at a church now called the Church of St. Mary and St. Cuthbert) before actually reaching Durham Cathedral. Attacking, as anachronistic, the Gaelic spelling of the name of the church as it is presented in the Kirkcudbright article doesn't change the fact that this was a Gaelic-speaking area (Galloway) during the historical period in question. Cuthbert, of course, was a Northumbrian; however, Lindisfarne, with which he is associated, was founded by Gaelic speakers, and this area was Brythonic speaking through late antiquity and Gaelic speaking until well into the Middle Ages. The movement of Cuthbert's remains from Lindisfarne to Durham appears to be associated with the relocation of the bishopric of Lindisfarne to Durham.

The tradition as to Cuthbert's remains is itself history (though apparently of the oral type), and it appears to be consistent with the other available information. There is an area called "Kirkcudbrightshire" (Kirkcudbright-Shire) within which is a town called "Kirkcudbright," the name of which means "church of Cuthbert," and within the town there is a church (itself, "Kirkcudbright") with a tradition that the remains of St. Cuthbert (Cuth-bert = Cud-bright) abode there for a seven-year period while in transit from Lindisfarne to Durham.

It seems reasonable to suppose that the Church of St. Cuthbert (Kirk-Cudbright) is of some significance to the history of the area named for the church, and, for that reason, the reason why the church was named for St. Cuthbert would seem to be non-trivial in terms of the history of the place. The article could be improved either by stating why the church was named for St. Cuthbert or by stating that the reason is not known. -- Bob (Bob99 (talk) 20:47, 31 August 2012 (UTC))

There was no "attacking as anchronistic" merely a simple statement of the historicityof Gaelic form. Any discussion of St Cuthebeet's relationship with the town bearing his name would clearly be best placed in the article on Kirkcudbright linked this one dealing with Kirkcudbrightshire article.

JF42 (talk) 12:05, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Gaelic version

Historic place names from the Gaelic abound in the Stewartry but is there any evidence in the records of the phrase 'Stewartry of Kirkcudbright' rendered in Gaelic? — Preceding unsigned comment added by JF42 (talk • contribs) 14:40, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, the term "Stewartry" describes a political structure that would not have existed during the medieval time period when Gaelic was the language of political administration (so to speak) in this area. Furthermore, Gaelic speakers would more likely have kept written records of tax collection (to which terms describing areas of political administration, like "stewartry," would be relevant) in Latin than in Gaelic. As I recall, Alfred the Great was the first ruler in the British Isles to establish a system of political administration based on records kept in a language other than Latin (and Kirkcudbrightshire was part of the Danelaw and thus less influenced by Alfred). There may be references from the Gaelic-speaking era in this region (in Latin, but possibly also in Gaelic) to the parish of St. Cuthbert, which may or may not have been approximately coextensive with the Stewartry. But it would not be surprising if there were no such references in existence today, since there would have to have been a reason to preserve the manuscripts for more than a thousand years. (There is no Gaelic in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, and Gaelic-speaking rulers may have thought in terms of familial relationships first and geography second.) -- Bob (Bob99 (talk) 20:47, 31 August 2012 (UTC))

History

The history section is very out of date and includes much tendentious material, particularly reference to Scandinavian influence, the Gall-Gaels and the name of Galloway. In 2011, any sentence with the word 'slew' in it should be immediately viewed as suspect. This section should be redrafted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JF42 (talk • contribs) 14:50, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Word or phrase missing.

From the Early History section:

"After the Norsemen conquered southern the fate of the rest of the kingdom is unclear."

Conquered southern what? Please elucidate. --Oldontarian (talk) 12:31, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

It wasn't at all clear, I agree. I've removed the two paragraphs because they largely talk about Galloway, rather than Kirkcudbrightshire. Without knowing what the Norse conquered and when, we don't have much context. Sionk (talk) 14:58, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Roman occupation

"the evidence is against there ever having been a prolonged effective Roman occupation. There was a Roman temporary marching camp at Shawhead, Irongray Parish."

A series of three Roman forts has been identified on the River Dee at Glenlochar (Balmaghie).

https://canmore.org.uk/site/64687/glenlochar

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenlochar

JF42 (talk) 23:11, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

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