Talk:Cilla Black

Gay Icon Project

In my effort to merge the now-deleted list from the article Gay icon to the Gay icons category, I have added this page to the category. I engaged in this effort as a "human script", adding everyone from the list to the category, bypassing the fact-checking stage. That is what I am relying on you to do. Please check the article Gay icon and make a judgment as to whether this person or group fits the category. By distributing this task from the regular editors of one article to the regular editors of several articles, I believe that the task of fact-checking this information can be expedited. Thank you very much. Philwelch 20:10, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

TV career

Over 30 years of TV is covered in little more than a couple of short paragraphs, I've added the 'expand' tag One Night In Hackney 14:00, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

The BBC Genome project has more details of her early career including appearances on Women's Hour and Saturday Club on radio - http://genome.ch.bbc.co.uk/search/0/20?q=Cilla&adv=1&yt=1968&yf=1965&media=tv&order=asc — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.198.146 (talk) 06:03, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Preposterous claims

"It's particularly worthy to note that Cilla had two consecutive #1 hits in 1964, arguably the most competitive year ever in UK pop history when Beatlemania ruled the waves and to make the Top 40 meant you had to be selling 100,000 records a day!!"

100,000 records a day to reach the top 40? Come on.....

This is actually not preposterous but a widly published fact. Link to BBC reference provided. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.2.129.64 (talk) 08:14, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

The BBC may have said it but it's still utter rubbish. For the claim to be true, ALL Top 20 hits would have sold over 700,000 units every week throughout the decade. In reality, between 1960 and 1970, only 14 singles managed to sell over 1 million units in the UK in total (i.e. after the sales across many weeks had been added together). http://www.theofficialcharts.com/stats-million_sellers.php

The BBC claim is highly misleading so I've removed the offending paragraph from the main article. David T Tokyo (talk) 04:01, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Films

She appeared and starred in a number of films in the 60's and 70' which are not mentioned at all. I remember seeing one which was set during the 70's which was seminal, where she was a girlfriend of a man who worked in a power station who grew magic mushrooms and whos aim was to make everybody happy. They end up taking the mushrooms and stopping the power for the whole city the station supplies. I think the film was called Work Is A Four-Letter Word around 1968. Her's a link. http://www.thevideobeat.com/store/beatnik-hippie-drug-movies/work-four-letter-word-1968.html scope_creep 00:21, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Cilla Black album cover.jpg

Image:Cilla Black album cover.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. BetacommandBot (talk) 20:22, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Death?!

What utter tw*t said that she died on June 3rd 2008?!?!?! --Mikey-is-lost (talk) 22:02, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Civility please! I reverted the IP's edits and asked for sources. Enviroboy^Talk_Cs 22:07, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Such sad sad news.............. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elainelaney (talk • contribs) 15:20, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Albums

The article claims that in the 70s her albums continued to sell well. Oh really? None of them actually made the charts - so what do you define as selling well?--Tuzapicabit (talk) 01:07, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

While I acknowledge that making the charts is the ultimate recognition of an album selling well, Cilla's albums did continue to sell well. She received Silver discs for albums such as "Day By Day" and "Especially For You" and her Greatest Hits album in the 1980s made the Top 20. Her last 2 albums "Through The Years" and "Beginnings" made the top 100. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.245.73.198 (talk) 00:20, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Progress

Well, we've had a lot of trouble with this article lately from one editor who doesn't apparently seem to understand how things should work here, and is now blocked. Apologies to those who have valiantly attempted to deal with this, but I have retrenched the article to a state from which it can develop positively. First, there was a lot of unsourced material which could have reasonably been sourced with a little effort, but was deleted without discussion; our guideline WP:SOFIXIT springs to mind here. Cilla Black's career is well-documented and the information is out there. I will flag this at the Music Wikiproject to see if anyone else is interested in working on it. Meanwhile, I think we've had enough disruption from those who can only be abusive and sneering, and at the first sign of any repetition of that attitude here, I will semi-protect this article so that committed editors may improve it without such disruption. for myself, lest I be accused of being "obsessive", my edits to this article have been few, whereas those of the IP have been many. Rodhullandemu 00:22, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Rod (and your emu!). David T Tokyo (talk) 07:09, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

The top selling single of all time by a British female artist

This particular claim was at the centre of the recent edit war. I've taken it out again because the reference that is there to support it completely fails to mention it; so there is no proof that the claim is correct.

Before I removed the claim and link for the first time I did a bit of digging around to see if I could find a suitable reference to support the claim. I didn't manage to and therefore took it out. However, I did find myself wondering exactly what IS being claimed.

Is it

a) That, prior to Alexandra Burke, Cilla Black held the record for the top selling single of all time by a British female artist in Britain? The wording would tend to support this; "...In Britain, where it remained the top selling single of all time by a British female artist". If so, the claim is wrong - there are numerous indications that Julie Covington's 1977 cover of "Don't Cry For Me, Argentina" was a much bigger seller (993,000 v 800,000).

b) That, prior to Alexandra Burke, Cilla Black held the record for the top selling single of all time by a British female artist on a worldwide basis? The Cilla Black single went on to sell another 1 million copies internationally. The Alexandra Burke article only mentions UK sales. There is no reference as to how many copies of the Julie Covington single were sold internationally. So, this claim might be true - but for it to be included here, proof is still required.

The All Music Guide (who usually like to reference sales records) say this: "it became the biggest selling single by a female artist in the history of popular music in England". Note the past tense - there's no claim that this is still the case. Note also the lack of reference to being a British singer, the record was for any female singer, irrespective of nationality.

Until such time as someone can provide firm evidence to support b) I suggest we go with the AMG quote. It was a remarkable achievement and therefore worthy of mention David T Tokyo (talk) 07:09, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Short-term protection

There is a tendentious editor who persists in deleting huge tracts of this article due to a misunderstanding of an opinion by User:Jimbo Wales which I cite on my userpage; he seems to be taking this personally since I pointed out two weeks ago that his edits were simply not supported by the source he was citing. Since this edit-warring is inimical to our purpose of providing free knowledge to the world in perpetuity, I have, for a short time, protected this article to prevent further misinterpretations of both policy and guidelines by this editor, given that he used at least two IP addresses and has claimed to have block-evaded to the tune of 300 vandalistic edits. Whereas I haven't had any significant content-based input into this article previously, merely applying our policies and guidelines, it is clear that until this is resolved, there will be problems with this editor. Accordingly, I have protected this article for three days to avoid wholesale unnecessary deletions of content which could be sourced by a committed editor, set aside time on Monday for research, and Tuesday for editing, given my other commitments here. Apologies to good-faith editors if this causes any inconvenience, but urgent edits may be addressed in the meantime by using the {{editsemiprotected}} template. This, by the way, is not intended to be an example of WP:OWN; it is an informal, but final, way of executing dispute resolution by applying WP:IAR, mostly because life's too short and brutal to do anything else here. Rodhullandemu 01:21, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Alas, rodhullandemu has misunderstood the purpose of wiki and the rules required for editing articles. He claims that it is OK to make statements in articles that are unsourced, unreferenced and unreliable, simply because he believes that they 'could' be easily sourced or referenced. At first he agreed that the edits I made were indeed correct as they were unsourced. He wrote as much on my talk page. But having done that and realised he had lost the battle, he abused the powers he has been given as an administrator to delete my talk page and remove his comments from all history. Having done that, and in the safety that his tracks were covered, he then reversed my edits and locked the page. He never makes any attempt to improve articles by providing sources for what is unsourced. He just deletes, blocks and locks. I suppose if you worship a whizened comedian who spent his career attacking people physically with his hand stuffed up the rectum of a toy bird, then you're not likely to have much of a life. Clearly he needs help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.201.16.217 (talk) 11:18, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Unprotection

I give up; I'm no longer watchlisting this page. Requests for protection may be referred here and reports of vandalism here. Rodhullandemu 12:17, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Child that died

i am just watching cilla black on the piers morgan show (i'm on my laptop, too, so not watching it properly, volume is a bit low, too) and she has just told how she lost her daughter, ellen (may have been helen), at birth. i didn't hear all what was said before, something about going to the cinema with bobby, and feeling a pain, blaming him for making her rush lunch and her thinking it was indigestion. i then looked up when there was a pause and noticed she was tearful. she said how it was horrible listening to the two woman in her ward, talking about their babies, when she didn't have one. there is no mention of this here in the article, and i just wondered if it was mentioned anywhere else on the net, so it could be referenced and put in here. is it worth putting it in? 77.97.110.57 (talk) 21:41, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

I added the little reference to it in the Personal Life section. However, I think that section needs alot of expansion Alex250P (talk) 21:57, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

I would imagine the event would be covered in one or both of her autobiographies? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:45, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

the link to the daughter who died a couple of hours after birth leads to the wrong Ellen - it leads to a very much alive american feminist- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.191.99.86 (talk) 06:32, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, which link do you mean? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:44, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:In_the_news/Candidates#RD:_Cilla Black

This article has been nominated as a recent death in the WP:ITN section of the front page.[1] Please do not add unsourced material. Rcsprinter¹²³ (rhapsodise) @ 13:12, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Now posted. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:25, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Date of death

Re date of death: - Why is this changed once again to 02 August ? I could understand it in the beginning but when now for sometime it is known that she died on Saturday afternoon 01st August ? It did say the correct date eventually but now it has reverted to the incorrect one . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.254.73.55 (talk) 16:19, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

There seems to be some disagreement, not least from reliable sources, as to whether it was 1 or 2 August. This seems rather surprising. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:46, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Well ANY source saying 02nd August is quite simply wrong and therefore NOT reliable — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.254.73.55 (talk) 07:53, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Some sources do indeed state 2 August - but others make it clear that she died on Saturday afternoon, 1 August. It seems to be a simple error made by a minority of sources. Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:19, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Even the BBC, five hours ago, seems to have it wrong: "Since her death on 2 August .." As does "The Daily Telegraph": "She died on August 2, 2015, at her home near Marbella, Spain." Martinevans123 (talk) 17:23, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

As far as I can see, this article does not yet mention a reliable source that substantiates 1 August. Jan Arkesteijn (talk) 17:34, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

"Cilla Black died of a stroke after falling over at her Spanish home on Saturday, the coroner has confirmed....". Saturday was 1 August. Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:48, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Please, help me. Where does it say 1 August, not 2 August? Jan Arkesteijn (talk) 17:53, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

So, saying "Saturday was 1 August" is WP:OR? Martinevans123 (talk) 17:54, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Agree. For many Saturdaynight extends in 2 August. Jan Arkesteijn (talk) 17:56, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

But the coroner didn't say "Saturday night". Most Saturdays end at midnight. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:01, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

She was not sunbathing during the night. "Cilla Black’s son Bobby discovered her body after forcing his way into her bedroom when she failed to rise from an afternoon siesta.... Paramedics arrived at the property in a quiet cul-de-sac around 6pm on Saturday but could do nothing to save her." Her death was noted here at 11:25 on 2 August, after the first reports came in. She died the previous day, not on the morning of 2nd. Some newspapers are perpetuating an error about the date... but that is not our problem. Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:55, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm just been adding details of her death and subsequent inquest to 2015 in British television and encountered the conflicting reports regarding the date. Her entry in the deaths section of that article had said 2 August, so I've updated it with a source used in this article, but I'm wondering which is correct. Most of the stuff I've come across so far is saying 2 August, but Ghmyrtye's observation makes sense. Did early reports get the date wrong? Is there a definitive source for the date? Any thoughts on this? This is Paul (talk) 16:57, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

The Liverpool Echo saying "Paramedics arrived at the property in a quiet cul-de-sac around 6pm on Saturday but could do nothing to save her." sounds pretty clear to me. This BBC source says Saturday, as does this one. But there is confusion as The Daily Telegraph has it wrong here.Martinevans123 (talk) 18:01, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, several Guardian articles I read this afternoon were saying the 2nd, but I would have thought that being her local newspaper, the Echo would make a point of getting it right. This is Paul (talk) 20:54, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

And here's the first BBC Radio 4 Six O'Clock News report, noting that Cilla had died, broadcast 18.00 on Sunday 2 August: [2] Martinevans123 (talk) 21:46, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

The death of Cilla Black was first announced on 02nd August . Exactly when she died was not stated . Everybody assumed that it was that day so that is what the first reports printed . It very soon became apparent when further details emerged that she had in fact died the previous day and in the early afternoon . However the 02 August date stuck and was repeated over and over regardless and still is . I started this thread here and hope I am ending it - full circle for something else today . I know we must look here for references but there must also be common sense used when everybody knows that many sources for references are wrong !!! We must print what is correct and what anyone with any sense learned very soon after the first reports and use only sources which quote the correct date of 01st August . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.254.73.55 (talk) 21:35, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

The Telegraph here reports the coroner as stating the date of death as 1 August... which should be definitive. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:45, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Tributes (encyclopedic value)

To me, there are way to many tributes under the death heading. There is no need to have three paragraphs of tributes, wikipedia isn't a tabloid. Gaia Octavia Agrippa ^Talk 20:41, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

No objection to trimming. I was just piling the luvvies in. There are plenty more. Not sure on criteria for keeps, however. There will be a funeral to contend with, of course, and possibly a separate memorial of some kind? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:47, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

I think we should limit it to close friends and people closely associated with her career - for example McCartney, Starr, O'Grady (though he could be trimmed greatly), Bacharach, possibly Sheridan Smith, possibly Tarbuck, possibly Sir Cliff) - and, I suppose, Cameron. But.... Emma Bunton???! Biggins?? Hunniford, Currie, Edmonds, etc.....??? We need to focus on people who actually said something worth repeating here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:22, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

How embarrassing. It's quite a rag bag, sob. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:29, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Silly boy. Surround yourself with sorrow. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:43, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. Note the deft use of the Dusty tragic hand Martinevans123 (talk) 21:49, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia, this is not the place for opinions of celebrities. Jan Arkesteijn (talk) 21:38, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

I've trimmed them, to include Cameron, a couple of close friends, and one or two directly involved in her career such as Bacharach. There is no agreement to remove them all. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:43, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

I've never heard of some of these. I think Cliff Richard should be included. He and Cilla were very close and were neighbours on Barbados and Marbeilla. Cliff as one of the greatest icons of British entertainment (if not the greatest) is probably the most important person warranting a mention, and why should it be mentioned in depth in his Wikipedia article and not here? I wil not edit war to include it but I would ask other editors to reconsider. Thanks. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:06, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

I am sorry, these tributes have no encyclopedic value. At occasions like this people tend to speak only about the positive memories, not about the negative memories. If someone speaks about the negative aspects of a deceased person, it is suppressed. We tend to exaggerate the good things. No encyclopedic value.Jan Arkesteijn (talk) 07:00, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

The (limited but still real) encyclopedic value in this case is in noting the esteem in which she was held, by leading politicians and by her most notable colleagues. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:48, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

That is exactly what I mean, you (most people at this moment) are biased to esteem. Biased information has no encyclopedic value. Jan Arkesteijn (talk) 07:56, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

If someone is reported to be esteemed in society, we can report that fact. No-one here is "biased to esteem" - we are summarising the position as reported in reliable sources. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:35, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

According to you answer, it seems you are. Jan Arkesteijn (talk) 09:31, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

That makes no sense. If you can find someone who agrees with you, I'll discuss it further. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:36, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

You may have a point, and this kind of "social media group hug" is usually even more exaggerated in the world of showbiz. But your argument is not based on any evidence, nor is it wiki policy. So it seems like WP:OR. It may be partly commonsense, but it's still based on an assumption. Would your view be the same here if, say, Barack Obama has sent his condolences? Martinevans123 (talk) 08:43, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Neither Barack Obama, nor David Cameron, are people whose opinions are relevant to the artist Cilla Black. The other way, if a celebrity would say she was a mediocre or even worse artist, would this opinion have it's place here, or would it be deleted out of respect. I think the latter. But we don't need to worry, even if Cameron would think she was mediocre, he would keep his mouth shut, and say the polite things he said. It does not say anything about the qualities of Cilla Black, it is only expected that he says things like that at this moment. Summarizing, her death is not the time to let people explore her qualities. By the way, I don't like it that you draw the OR card when I discuss low quality encyclopedic opinions of celebrities. Jan Arkesteijn (talk) 09:31, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

So the opinions of some people, on the abilites of deceased singers, do matter, but we have to ignore all of them as they are just being nice, yes? It's not "the OR card", it's just suggesting that this is your personal opinon. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:05, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

I think we should keep the most important of the eulogies. And on that, I believe we now have a concensus. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 11:21, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

If you look at some featured articles for artists who died some time ago such as John Lennon or Elvis Presley you will see there are a small number of quotations given in the Legacy sections from people who had something significant to say about their legacies. Richerman (talk) 14:35, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

The article over here shows only 'De mortuis nil nisi bonum' statements, whereas your comparisons shows actual significant quotations. Jan Arkesteijn (talk) 17:21, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Cilla loved Italian - Il Mio Mondo was a classic. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:13, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20130926045141/http://www.cillablack.com:80/cpt_news/this-really-is-the-very-best-of-cilla-black-cd-dvd/ to http://www.cillablack.com/cpt_news/this-really-is-the-very-best-of-cilla-black-cd-dvd
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20141109062834/http://www.cillablack.com/cpt_news/cilla-is-so-excited-to-be-a-judge-on-itvs-new-talent-show-soapstar-superstar/ to http://www.cillablack.com/cpt_news/cilla-is-so-excited-to-be-a-judge-on-itvs-new-talent-show-soapstar-superstar/

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Accidental deaths from falls

There is a category on Wikipedia "Accidental deaths from falls". Should Cilla Black be added to this category? Vanilla Cornettto — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.5.53.33 (talk) 18:49, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 01:28, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

Gerry and the Pacemakers

Were Gerry and the Pacemakers an "associated act"? Currently there is only one (very oblique) mention of the band in the whole article. David T Tokyo has suggested that this article in the Liverpool Echo can be used to support the association. It has this quote from Marsden: "'The Pacemakers were the band who backed her in the Cavern on a few songs to go down to EMI for a recording test. So I was really close to her.'" To my mind this is hardly enough to prove any notable "association" between the two Martinevans123 (talk) 17:54, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Me neither, they simply happened to arise at roughly the same time from the same place. You could try to draw an "association" between any of the Mersey beat brigade of that period, but it needs more than one short newspaper article. - Derek R Bullamore (talk) 21:17, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

It's a bit more than "happened to arise" I think, given the Marsden quote - they were all good mates, like. But probably not enough to be an "associated act", unless there are good refs for a stronger association. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:31, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

On the face of it Marsden's claim appears to me to be either a non sequitur or an exercise in sleb vanity. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:36, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

It was Marsden who was the "sleb" in the early days, not Cilla (the hatcheck girl). I had a quick check of Bill Harry's site, and, apart from a mention of "her friend Pauline Behan, who was going steady with George Harrison at the time and was later to marry Gerry Marsden...", there's nothing specific. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:45, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes, even if "Cilla and me were bezzies" was true (and it may well have been), there seems to be no strong connection between her and the band. If any better source(s) could be provided, no problem. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:49, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

As the person responsible for the edit (sorry about that), I was simply answering the question - was there an association? And yes, there obviously was. She would sing in front of the band and worked with them prior to going down to London and recording for the first time. As to whether that's an important enough association, that's a different question entirely. It's tangential but arguably no less tangential than her association with the Beatles - they were all thick as thieves in the Cavern in those days. If the Beatles get the nod because she sang some of their songs (notably "Step Inside Love"), then why isn't Burt Bacharach on the list? I've no problem if others decide G&TP are not "associated" enough but it would be good to be consistent. David T Tokyo (talk) 09:06, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for raising the question anyway, David. When you say "she would sing in front of the band", do you have any better source(s) that directly support that claim? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:09, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks Martin. The only references I've come across have been from Gerry Marsden himself. There's no reason to disbelieve him but, as I said, it's a question of whether the association warrants inclusion. David T Tokyo (talk) 14:35, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

David T Tokyo - the guidance we use is at Template:Infobox musical artist, which says, under "Associated acts": "This field is for professional relationships with other notable musicians or bands that are significant to this artist's career. This field can include, for example, any of the following: For individuals: groups of which they have been a member. Acts with which this act has collaborated on multiple occasions, or on an album, or toured with as a single collaboration act playing together. Groups which have spun off from this group. A group from which this group has spun off." That would not, I think, justify the inclusion of Gerry and the Pacemakers in the infobox in this article. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:29, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for that. As I said before, I was simply pointing out there was an association. If the consensus is that it's not strong enough - no problem. David T Tokyo (talk) 14:35, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

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