Talk:John Morton (American politician)

Nationality?

Morton was Finnish and his original name is Jukka Marttinen, but user:ScapegoatVandal has deleted this fact. It is true that some sources claims he is Swedish, but it is just because of American Finns were called Swedish that time. Other sources are more aware of his ethnicity. It is even known that accordicg to church books (which were accurate) his grandfather was Martti Marttinen who moved from village of Rautalampi in Finland to America. Also his Finnish American and Finnish Finnish relatives are known these days, and there is no errors anywhere in his family tree.

• http://encycl.opentopia.com/term/Finnish_Americans
• http://pedia.newsfilter.co.uk/wikipedia/f/fi/finnish_americans.html

About his Finnish relatives still living: http://www.azstarnet.com/public/nonprofit/finnclub/newsletter.Feb04.html

Tuohirulla 16:45, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You can't base facts upon mirror sites of Wikipedia, which means your two first propositions are completely invalid. The third website barely says anything. Provide another source to corroborate and justify that one as legit! ScapegoatVandal 16:51, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There are a lots of studies about him in Finnish, but i think i need to google something in English

http://www.genealogia.fi/emi/art/article268e.htm

http://www.loc.gov/rr/european/FinnsAmer/finchro.html

Tuohirulla 17:02, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This one was not found by google, but luckily i remembered it http://virtual.finland.fi/netcomm/news/showarticle.asp?intNWSAID=33022&LAN=ENG Tuohirulla 17:15, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Another talk about this subject

copied from the discussion board of both participants

Please stop vandalising John Morton article. It is a trivial fact that he is Finnish. His family tree is known from the Rautalampian ancestors to these days. Tuohirulla 17:03, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Provide legit sources, because as it seems right now you are the vandal on the loose! ScapegoatVandal 16:55, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

http://virtual.finland.fi/netcomm/news/showarticle.asp?intNWSAID=33022&LAN=ENG Tuohirulla 17:06, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Why don't AMERICAN sources say that, since New Sweden and John Morton were American? ScapegoatVandal 17:15, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

http://www.loc.gov/rr/european/FinnsAmer/finchro.html Tuohirulla 17:17, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Still, that only says they THINK he could be Finnish...not that he in fact was. ScapegoatVandal 17:20, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

None of "your pages" says he could not be a Finn. They are just copying the habit of his time to call all the migrants from swedish kingdom as "swedish". Also Finnish hakkapeliittas invading Karelia and Russia were called "swedish", and still it is known they were Finnish. The term "Swedish" included Finns at that time. But now we are more aware that there were different ethnicities based on language, and we can and to be proper we must use the proper terms. And by the way, the fact that link is American is not and evidence thet it is true. Tuohirulla 17:29, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hey sir, I am not a pinhead! I actually know that Finland was Oesterland for several hundred years and later a Russian Duchy, so don't get all preachy with me! There are authors who have suggested his ancestry as Finnish, but nowhere in the Library of Congress link does it say that he in fact was. Do you understand the difference between fact and suggestion? ScapegoatVandal 17:35, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If churchbooks, genealogias and civilian registers are not facts to you, then what is? I can not give you links to them but they do exist. His relatives in America are still Finnish, one of them (Mortons) was also recently interwieved in newspaper- in Finnish. At that time Finnish people said to have been born in Finland in Sweden, because Finland was a part of the swedish realm.

I can try to google more, but most of this stuff is maybe not in internet.

http://personal.inet.fi/yhdistys/centralin/swe/emi_ref.htm

http://www.genealogia.fi/emi/art/article385e.htm

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~barbpretz/ps04/ps04_167.html Tuohirulla 17:50, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I am really encouraging you to note, that nobody appeared to notice him being Finnish at the time of his life. Why should they think on it later, unless they were Finns thinking they could invent comparable contributions to their Swedish overlords and in the face of the Russian doomsday? This inference is akin to neopagan fluff. It is retroactive association. His family was considered Swedish and since he was a national figure that the time, the distinction between Swede and Finn would be apparent to all. Case in point...Americans knew the difference between a Bavarian and a Prussian, so they would know this too. You are looking for loopholes to secure you the real truth and I have given it, in the holes of your arguments. ScapegoatVandal 17:54, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Do you know how common it is for people to fake genealogies, especially for fame? ScapegoatVandal 17:57, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As it is know the Finns do not make a big show about their ethnicity. It would be unfinnish if Morton would have started to shout in congress that he is a Finn. He became an American patriot, of course he thought he was American. But still his roots are in Finland. You are not a neutral person, which everybody can see about your modifications and claims. You style is aggressive, and you mock the persons and ethnic groups, you see hate and identity complexes everywhere, and use them as arguments. I suggest everyone to look at your earlier edits Tuohirulla 18:14, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Welshmen know they aren't English and others are sure to notice the distinction. Northern Irish are clearly not Republican Irish. You fail to see how your "evidence" is built on a lot of hope and a few scattered facts that seem to go together but may in fact be false friends. Truely now? I merely check the validity of claims, to avoid crackpots running the lunatic asylum that is Wikipedia. I only want hardcore facts and if none, it must be acknowledged that there is shaky ground within such questionable articles. ScapegoatVandal 18:24, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

My facts are not shaky. You should read more literacy about this subject Tuohirulla 18:27, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have read what you gave me and it is not filled with absolutes.

http://www.ancestry.com/search/SurnamePage.aspx?sourcecode=13304&html=b&fn=&ln=morton&submit.x=0&submit.y=0

http://www.ancestry.com/search/SurnamePage.aspx?ln=Martin&fn=&sourcecode=13304&html=b

That's Ancestry.com, which specifies in people of all American backgrounds. It doesn't mention Finnish once in the resulte for "Morton", although you may look up another surname and perhaps find info about their heritage. This search engine says Morton is Swedish, as do most of the articles online say that John Morton was born of a Swedish womb. See it however you like, but these people are professionals who can tell the difference in location within England(north, south, east and west) for certain surnames. That site delineates quite fine details even about my own surname I could hardly guess. ScapegoatVandal 18:42, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As you know, the Finns were called "Swedish" that time. Everyone considered them Swedish. So people called them Swedish in many other cases too, and some genealogies have marked them such, but still they were Finnish in modern way of seeing, as they were from Finland and spoke Finnish. This is not revisionism. It has been known a long time that he is Finnish. Tuohirulla 18:50, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It has been suggested ever since the mid-19th century that he was Finnish. Nobody talked about it in his lifetime. You are making postulations and defying every single sense of calm. You prefer jumping conclusions, as opposed to totally verifying the POV you pressure. Hey, I believe a lot of things too. It doesn't mean I will shove all my questionable "knowledge" into the public domain as "truth" and Gospel. Hell, I can tell the difference between Finns and Swedes by looks, accent, language, writing, names and clothing. Finns have never considered themselves Swedish, in the same context of Irish never considering themselves British. Do you understand what this means to your precious theory? I can tell the difference between Irish and British at the drop of a hat. Can you do as I and many others? Don't blend the boundaries of fact and suggestion to suit your needs and things will be alright. Only after Finland was conquered by Russia, did this "truth" get its way into the public ideal. The brave and bold Finn in America against Britain, as if it were a metaphor for the fight against Russia.

From the Wikipedia article about Finland:

"In 1808, Finland was conquered by the armies of Russian Emperor Alexander I and thereafter remained an autonomous Grand Duchy in personal union with the Russian Empire until the end of 1917. To sever the cultural and emotional ties with Sweden, the Finnish language was ardently promoted by both the imperial court and the Finnish government and a strong nationalist movement, known as fennomania, since about 1860s. Milestones in this development were the publication of what would become Finland's national epic, the Kalevala, in 1835; and Finnish getting a legally equal status with Swedish in 1892."

Do you see how Finnish nationalism inspired the belief that John Morton was Finnish, at the same time as fennomania? Please learn more. ScapegoatVandal 19:04, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Please don't be upset over losing control of this. Power isn't everything and I do this as a matter of course in aiding the Wikipedia project not be stifled by inaccuracies. Just think of how you were duped into believing him to be Swedish, as a tool of Finnish nationalism. Ponder and reflect on how it isn't good to automatically believe everything you hear that sounds good. ScapegoatVandal 19:27, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I used to be a super-Protestant, always disparaging Catholics because Evangelists were always right. You know something? I learnt a thing or two about respect. I felt cheated by my own supposed heroes that carried the good fight. I then saw life as it truely was, with bickering factions always trying to be on top and resorting to libel and slander if needed to win. Propping an enemy's own great figure for a useful cause is a typical tactic in times of war. It is a mindgame to get the most amount of emotional support on one side. I used to think some people were my heroes, until I saw how their identity was twisted to suit political beliefs. I wish I hadn't adopted the mantle of my own opponents, because I feel like a part of my life was stolen. In fact, it was a sleight of hand and magic trick. I will never forget it. I cannot stand to be cheated of these things, yet I know the truth. Just my advice for you. ScapegoatVandal 19:27, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Edit war ScapegoatVandal 20:14, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If i lose "control over this" it is just because you are more keen to fight the edit war. IF it was not understood earlier than in 19th century in the publicity that Morton was a Finn, it was because there were not such self understanding of Finnishness. There were, of course, the language, but not modern images of etnicity and nationality. Also Morton considered himself patriotic American. I understand that you support him being labeled as "Swedish" as they did that time to the Finns in America and elsewhere, but his American-Finnish relatives who lives today shows clearly they know who Morton was and that he was a Finn. Your claims seems so irrational to me who have read about those American Finns living today, whose straight ancestor he was Tuohirulla 21:54, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This page contains article published in Swedish colonial news 1997: http://www.colonialswedes.org/Forefathers/Morton.html It says that Mortons ancestor was in fact born in Finland, but then moved to Sweden. This living in Sweden may have also made his "swedish" label stronger. This article is made by by Dr. Peter Stebbins Craig (Fellow, American Society of Genealogists, Fellow, Genealogical Society of Pennsylvania, Historian, Swedish Colonial Society) and surely is free of finnish nationalistic fraud which you accuse my sources to have. It also explains totally why he is still understood as "swedish" even though he is from finnish ancestry: His ancestor came in America from Sweden (and to Sweden from Finland). Tuohirulla 22:11, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The best and most recent source cited so far is Swedish colonial news 1997 by Touhirulla. It clearly says that John Morton was of Finnish orgin - in particular ethnically speaking. I suggest that the article should say 'of Finnish origin'. If the discussion was about nationality, well then I suppose we should say that he was one of the first citizens of the US. Trainthh 11:33, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If only this link can be trusted, Morton's parents weren't from Finland nor Sweden (but his great-grandfather was) nor Morton's name never was Jukka Marttinen.

http://www.pittsburghfinns.org/FinnishCommittee.html --ML 14 Jun 2005

I'd hope you can put all the links down on the page. This has been interesting. ScapegoatVandal 05:04, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There seems to be an agreement emerging on this article. Do all agree that NPOV-tag could be removed? I found this discussion a useful case demonstrating how careful one should be with sources. Trainthh

Yes. ScapegoatVandal 12:41, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Not important

I removed 6 paragraphs that was word-for-word the same as is found on this website. As far as my opinion on the rest of the article, the tidbit about Swedish/Finnish ancestry is interesting, but it doesn't warrant three paragraphs. A simple link or two will suffice. John Morton isn't what I would term an important Founding Father. Sure, his vote turned out to be the deciding vote in favor of independence, but that is basically it. So, I'll delete the rest of the biography section. --Sparkhurst 07:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Good grief; if it matters, I am an American Foreign Service Officer and from 2003-2007 was the Political Officer at the U.S. Embassy in Helsinki. During that time, the U.S. Embassy extensively researched John Morton in preparation for a diplomatic outreach involving famous Finnish-Americans. As some of the posters above note, Morton's ancestors did indeed hail from Rautalampi, and some still reside there today. The Swedish/Finnish debate is obscured by the fact that all Finns in 18th Century America were considered "Swedes," but there is no doubt that Morton's ancestors were Fenno-Finns. The U.S. Department of State even sponsored an historical "impersanator" dressed in period costume in 2007 (or late 2006, I forget) to travel to Finland and re-enact Morton's speeches and historical contributions. Please put me down as an original source if needed to end the vandalism to this article-- David A. Schlaefer, U.S. Embassy-Helsinki —Preceding unsigned comment added by 214.13.130.104 (talk) 05:56, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Burial confusion

We now have two different burial sites given. Which is it? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:10, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

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