Talk:Sea Peoples

ERA

Hi Donald Albury, the original non stub wiki for this article is BC and it was changed against MOS:ERA protocol to a CE article. I am simply reverting this change.

If, however, you think this should constitute a conversation about why this article needs to be changed to a CE article rather than a BC article please state your arguments here. Paokara777 (talk) 01:03, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Note that BCE has been used in preference to BC in this article since 2013, ten years, which means that it had become the established style. MOS:ERA says, An article's established era style should not be changed without reasons specific to its content; seek consensus on the talk page first (applying Wikipedia:Manual of Style § Retaining existing styles) by opening a discussion under a heading using the word era, and briefly stating why the style should be changed. I do not see anything in Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers that priviledges the original style if another style has become the established style. That this article originally used BC rather than BCE would be an argument to present in a discussion about changing the article from BCE to BC, but it does not justify unilaterally making that change without consensus. Donald Albury 13:03, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

What is the maximum time, frame as per the manual of style, after which an incorrect edit is to remain in a wiki article? Paokara777 (talk) 22:56, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

No style of Era is correct or incorrect. The whole point of the MOS provision on ERA is that both BC/AD and BCE/CE are valid styles. The prohibition on changing established styles without a consensus to do so is to provide stability to articles, lest editors edit war over which style to use. If a particular style of Era has been used in an article for many years, as is the case here, without being challenged, it is established, and should not be changed without a consensus to do so being reached in a discussion. Per the advice at Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, you would have done better by starting this discussion without reverting me. That you did revert me is the first step in an edit war. I will not revert you because I try very hard to voluntarily observe a one-revert rule to avoid any appearance of edit warring. Donald Albury 00:39, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

The article was already established as BC article in the 10 years previous to its uncited change to a BCE article. Users seem to only enforce when BCE articles are (correctly or incorrectly) changed from BCE to BC and seem to turn a blind eye the other way around. In any case, I would not be advocating for this to be a BC article if it wasn't established as one, the same way that i would support you or anyone else advocating for a BCE article to stay a BCE article as the MOS:ERA states. And I agree, to stop the revert wars we need to establish or draw a line in the sand somewhere. And the line was drawn. If it was established as a non stub article with BC and AD era notations it is to remain that way unless there is a good reason not to, and a consensus is reached on that. If we fail to uphold those rules we do, as you bring up, risk starting a revert war for bce and bc articles. Paokara777 (talk) 07:04, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Well, when the question of what "established era styler" means was discussed at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 226#Discussion (MOS:ERA's "established era style" clause) early last year, there was no clear consensus, so I will leave this discussion, unless other editors weight in to establish a conensus for this article.

I will advise you to either produce evidence that Users seem to only enforce when BCE articles are (correctly or incorrectly) changed from BCE to BC and seem to turn a blind eye the other way around., or strike it out. I do use BCE/CE where I think it is appropriate in articles that I create (about archaeological sites and archaeological cultures of the Southeastern U.S.). I have never changed an article from one ERA style to another, except to revert changes made without consensus. I revert such changes without regard to which style was previuosly established in the article. As I said, if you do know of any editor that is reverting era changes in only one direction, say who it is so that the behavior can be addressed. Unsubstantiated charges of that sort are not helpful for building the community. Donald Albury 21:51, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Just wanted to pop in briefly to make my usual arguments for BCE, though to be honest, they're basically my subjective views. In my anecdotal experience, the trend in the scholarly world (at least in North America) has been toward BCE, especially with regard to subjects having no link to Christianity. Couple that with my (again, subjective) horror at the fact that most everyone agrees that "BC" is based on the wrong date, and my mind is made up. That is, it is a problem for me to assert that the historical Jesus was alive for somewhere between two and four years "Before Christ," but not to say "Jesus was born two to four years before the "Common Era." While the latter still doesn't make a ton of sense, it has the virtue to me of not being inherently contradictory. That said, happy to go wherever consensus leads. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 01:11, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Hi Dumuzid. Thanks for chiming in. The "scholarly world" also exists outside of N. America. Even in America there is not 100% consensus on what is more accurate and what should be used. Using BCE in place of BC is misleading. Yes, it might be (possibly, it hasn't been 100% made certain) that Christ was born a couple of years before the dating system would suggest. The dating system itself is a piece of history. The fact that you were "horrified" about a dating system also might hint towards your personal biases and preferences. Paokara777 (talk) 09:18, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

The evidence I can point to is in this very discussion. Would you consider the change from BC to BCE in 2013 to be unjustified as per MOS:ERA. And no one reverted it. I am also like you, Donald. I do not change BCE articles to BC. I am not looking for a culture war here, I am looking to enforce the MOS:ERA in a way that keeps the balance and neutrality alive in this community. I respect your opinions and your leaning towards BCE for your articles. I am not trying to change that. Paokara777 (talk) 09:13, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree that a decade at BCE is more than long enough to have established it as the consensus standard at the article. Whether is should have been changed 10 years ago without more discussion is basically irrelevant at this point, and trying to change it back to BC against a decade of stability and consistency on the basis of someone not properly following some rule (in a guideline not a policy) ten years ago is WP:WIKILAWYERing (specifically both of a the first two bullet items listed there; the purpose of the guideline is to stop date-warring not to enable more of it) and runs counter to both WP:EDITCON and WP:NOT#BUREAUCRACY policies. Usage in reliable source materials on this subject is entirely mixed and there is no "national tie" argument to make, so there is no reader-facing reason and not legitimate editor-facing reason to move away from the now well-established BCE style. Meanwhile, this topic has no connection to Christianity (or Western history under Christianity, or anything otherwise related), so there is no rationale in favor of BC in particular.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:04, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

The originally established BC Article was incorrectly changed to a BCE article from an anonymous user Special:Contributions/89.16.134.159. That user did not explain why it should be changed from a BC article to a BCE article. If you think that the change from BC to BCE is justified but the change back to BC is not then you have a bias towards BCE which is what the MOS:ERA document was established to address. Paokara777 (talk) 12:58, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

I would also like to note that there is an image in this article "Sea Peoples#/media/File:Invasions, destructions and possible population movements during the Bronze Age Collapse, ca. 1200 BC.png" that has BC notation used in the image, and one section of Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Retaining existing styles states that there should be Consistency within articles. Since we are using BC notation in the image and caption of that image, it would be following with both the MOS:ERA and Manual of style guidelines. See: Use either the BC–AD or the BCE–CE notation consistently within the same article. Exception: do not change direct quotations, titles, etc Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#Year numbering systems Paokara777 (talk) 13:22, 20 November 2023 (UTC)